[
PLEASE LOGIN TO POST TO THE FORUM
]
|
|
|
zackly
|
Tue, 03 June 08 10:42 GMT
|
Certainly have NOT seen "protocols and intepretations" (we've been there before) YET. I doubt I ever will.
So thanks to simonthomas for SA referees link at ELV Topic. See http://www.sareferees.co.za/news/ref_news/223094.htm
This quotes IRB missive requiring referees to pay more attention at the Tackle wrt sealing & parking & going to ground - an' a' that. But not evidently put into action during latest Sevens tournaments on TV. nor Premiership Final.
IRB direct response to self-evident flagrant breaches of Law 15 is much quicker than negotiating critical comments thru Ref Society, then to CB, then to RFU . . . . (yawn) and I haven't yet seen the RFU pass on this particular IRB instruction downwards to me. What IS going on (or not) !!!!!
At 101 items so far, since Sept 07, this Topic stands out - screaming for action with every TV match !!
This message edited on Tue, 03 June 08 by zackly
|
|
|
ob
|
Sat, 10 May 08 11:09 GMT
|
simonthomas - where is the set of protocols and interpretations published?
|
|
|
meldt11
|
Fri, 09 May 08 13:43 GMT
|
zackly
There are accepted lines of communicating information, policy and concerns in Officiating in England and this Forum is not one of them.
The normal channels are
Society member <--> Society <--> Referee Department
and/or
Society member <--> Society <--> Federation <--> RFRU
Andy
|
|
|
didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
|
Fri, 09 May 08 11:09 GMT
|
OB - I don't disagree with you one iota.
The point I was trying to make is that with all this ignorance about, the game needs to sort it out. I agree with your comments regarding ignorant commentators, but unfortunately they are there as much for any controversy thay can whip up into a frenzy as they are any alleged knowledge of the game [1]
Many of these myths could be dispelled by the RFU/CBs/whoever (maybe via Refs societies) simply writing/emailing every club in the land - via their secretary and/or Cluib Coaching Coordinator and/or chairman and/or 1st XV skipper as held in the rugbyfirst database [2]. It is then the CLUB's responsibility to diseminate this info, which refs throughout the land can clearly and succinctly explain to players (at appropriate times).
The TV stations could be provided with the document as well, and the docuement could carry the rider that these ARE the correct interpretations whatever may be told by anybody else other than the RFU refs department (or whoever).
Naturally the same document/email/whatever would aso be required to be provided to every society referee ;-)
Is it really that difficult? Place the onus back on the clubs rather than perpetuate this tedious business that clearly and underdstandably makes reffing in the lower levels doubly difficult.
In case I have not made it plain, I am on the referee's side and am proposing a way forward that would see a definitive line in the sand drawn such that it unequivocably leaves clubs and broadcasters with the onus on propogating the correct message. It won't stop the whiging overal;l - I am not that naive. But it will be a step towards stopping referees being hung out to dry.
didds
[1] I once had the misfortune to hear Stuart barnes going into an apoplexy about a ball that was clearly passed backwards, went backwards by ANY measure that then bounced and ended up as a result of that bounce changing direction and ending up in front of the passer - he was adamant that this was a forqard pass. How ANY internationl fly half could believe that is beyoind me, and I refuse to believe that he genuinely belived the drivel he was coming out with.
[2] Yes, I agree its a crock of poo but clubs have to meet the RFU somewhere along the road and this information is a one time annual hit (oif that if the positions never change!)
|
|
|
zackly
|
Thu, 08 May 08 18:32 GMT
|
Andy Melrose - Where the hell are you ???? !!!!
Judging by the range & strength of contributions, this topic seems to have real merit for early advice from the RFU and signs of action - even as we await the ELVs for next season.
As I said much earlier in this Thread :
<<< >Andy Melrose. Where are you ? We need you (as the only RFU official who has revealed himself as ever reading this Topic - shame on you RFU !) to help get the message robustly and a.s.a.p. to Community coaches at Levels 13-8. Starting, I recommend, with coaches of U18-U13 Junior teams. That these children are being coached to Bridge, Seal, Latch is a disgraceful RFU failure of standards in the Community game. >>>
|
|
|
ob
|
Wed, 30 April 08 13:24 GMT
|
didds – there are a lot of myths that are hard to kill off.
I am tired of players still trying to explain to me that rucking a player is OK if the foot is moving backwards.
I am tired of players shouting “Let him up” when a player falls on the ball.
I am tired of players who think they can handle the ball in the ruck if they are on their feet.
I am tired of players who do not know you have to move back under the 10 metre offside law.
Players also need to realise that not all offences are penalised, particularly in the local park – advantage, materiality etc.
Educating players is not really the referee’s job – it is down to the player himself and the coaches. But it is not easy. They are not helped by certain commentators either.
|
|
|
didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
|
Wed, 30 April 08 11:21 GMT
|
"The people who coach sealing believe that their players ARE on their feet.
I, like you, think they are wrong but in their mind they are not breaking Law 15 or regulation 6."
They THINK they are right cos
* they see it unpenalised on TV
* they DO see it unpenalised in their own (club) games, by both club and society refs
* no-one has ever advised them with evidence that it is wrong
and possibly
* somebody that they have respect for (position in game etc) has told them is is right!
That deosn;t mean they are right though. But until the above three points are addressed, they will continue to be believed.
didds
|
|
|
pauldg
|
Tue, 29 April 08 19:50 GMT
|
>The people who coach sealing believe that their players ARE on their feet.
I've had players tell me "but I was on my feet Sir".
I occasionally reply "if you can stay in that position and fold your arms without landing on your face, I'll believe you".
|
-------------------------
--
PaulDG |
|
|
HighsideUK
|
Tue, 29 April 08 14:15 GMT
|
pauldg
"Continuum (regulation 6, Tackle):"
To be honest I'd forgotten about that.
But the senior Laws say
15.7
c) No player may fall on or over the tackled player.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
d)No player may fall on or over the players lying on the ground after
a tackle with the ball between or near to them.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
So there really isn't much of a variation - apart from possibly the bit about "falling on purpose" (!?). They are just re-stating the senior laws.
"The object is to keep players on their feet..."
You are missing the point.
The people who coach sealing believe that their players ARE on their feet.
I, like you, think they are wrong but in their mind they are not breaking Law 15 or regulation 6.
This message edited on Tue, 29 April 08 by HighsideUK
|
|
|
pauldg
|
Tue, 29 April 08 13:50 GMT
|
From the Continuum (regulation 6, Tackle):
"(d) It is illegal for any player to voluntarily fall on or over a player lying on the ground with the ball in his possession or to voluntarily fall on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Penalty: Free pass.
Note:
(1) no advantage shall be played;
(2) a player is assumed to have fallen voluntarily unless the referee is absolutely certain the fall was accidental;
(3) in the very rare instances when the fall is accidental, play must be stopped and a scrum awarded to the side previously in possession.
The object is to keep players on their feet and to prevent them from falling to the ground, thus removing a dangerous area of play. This will create proper rucks and mauls through encouraging players from each team to remain on their feet"
|
-------------------------
--
PaulDG |
|
|
HighsideUK
|
Tue, 29 April 08 12:30 GMT
|
"And at Mini level, not just Youth - sounds complete bollox or misundertanding"
There is no variation around this for any age group.
If it is legal for internationals then it is legal for U9s.
If you are forming an opinion about whether it is safe.... well, that's up to you but it is only an opinion and your opinion does not render anybopdy elses opinion bollox!
|
|
|
j adams
|
Tue, 29 April 08 12:05 GMT
|
I think the answer to which CB/Soc is in my original post!
|
|
|
j adams
|
Mon, 28 April 08 15:20 GMT
|
At a Mini Festival yesterday where a team from Yorkshire were miffed that they kept being penalised for sealing the ball. They alleged they have been told by their CB/Refs Society that this form of play is allowed, and isn't to be pinged. They therefore coach their players to do it.
|
|
|
pauldg
|
Wed, 09 April 08 14:05 GMT
|
>Andy Melrose. Where are you ? We need you (as the only RFU official who has revealed himself as ever reading this Topic - shame on you RFU !) to help get the message robustly and a.s.a.p. to Community coaches at Levels 13-8. Starting, I recommend, with coaches of U18-U13 Junior teams. That these children are being coached to Bridge, Seal, Latch is a disgraceful RFU failure of standards in the Community game.
Not just junior players - I regularly see minis do it now.
I intend to bring this up at my next society meeting. I want guidance on this.
|
-------------------------
--
PaulDG |
|
|
meldt11
|
Tue, 01 April 08 11:59 GMT
|
Andy Melrose. Where are you ?
Canada
Andy
|
|
|
didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
|
Mon, 31 March 08 14:29 GMT
|
Ciaran - it may surprise you but I actually agree with the community refs in that bridging is clearly illegal by the letter of the laws. I also agree about your comments regarding exposure of the neck and safety etc.
My point was that if this WF was so surprised at Ciaran pinging him for it, this would indicate to me that every other ref he has done this in front of has NOT penalised him for it.
I am not doubting it is illegal - but it would appear that Ciaran's fellow refs at that level do not see it as such. For whatever reasons of their own.
Hence Ciaran's PRIMARY problem is not that the WF has a different interpretation - but that Ciaran's fellow refs clearly have a different interpretation and the WF is not getting a concerted message as to his activities.
didds
This message edited on Mon, 31 March 08 by didds
|
|
|
ctrainor
|
Sat, 29 March 08 10:47 GMT
|
Let me just clarify, the WF arrived as the tackle was made, straight over hands on ball with his body on the tacled player and the tackler.
Didds, you seem to be implying you have been given a new set of laws covering a topic called bridging.
Well I haven't and if you are off your feet or supporting yourself whilst by hyur body being on a player on the ground as they do in showbiz, you're off your feet and penalty.
Generally it's also a pretty dangerous position to put your neck in anyway.
Player safety paramount.
|
-------------------------
Ciaran Trainor |
|
|
didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
|
Fri, 28 March 08 16:53 GMT
|
simon and ciaran - clearly Ciaran's problem isn not si much that the player had a different interpretation to Ciaran... but obviously so had most if not all refs that player had come up against before Ciaran whistled his side.
ie obviously every other ref that WF had encountered so far did "know a thing about brdging" [sic]
didds
|
|
|
zackly
|
Fri, 28 March 08 12:27 GMT
|
ctrainor & Highside UK. See LoG 15.5(e). << If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball >>
The grounded ball-carrier has only one option - release the ball to the player on his feet IMMEDIATELY or AT ONCE - depending on how quickly the opponent arrives.
You might also note that I've witnessed a professional player (Level 2) coaching U16 players to "drop a knee" on the grounded ball-carrier's ribs to "encourage him to release the ball". Well . . . . he was an Aussie, but reacted badly to my analysis that this was an action worthy of a YC in addition to the PK ! See Mike Phillips of Wales recently. Brave refereeing decision in front of thousands of excited Welsh-people !!
This message edited on Fri, 28 March 08 by zackly
|
|
|
zackly
|
Fri, 28 March 08 12:20 GMT
|
Andy Melrose. Where are you ? We need you (as the only RFU official who has revealed himself as ever reading this Topic - shame on you RFU !) to help get the message robustly and a.s.a.p. to Community coaches at Levels 13-8. Starting, I recommend, with coaches of U18-U13 Junior teams. That these children are being coached to Bridge, Seal, Latch is a disgraceful RFU failure of standards in the Community game.
I do quite a lot of U18 - U15 games and feel I'm faced by an unstoppable tidal wave of cheating at the post-tackle - all coached by enthusiastic Showbiz-TV-watching adults.
This message edited on Fri, 28 March 08 by zackly
|
|
|
HighsideUK
|
Fri, 28 March 08 12:15 GMT
|
ctrainor
"...trying to wrestle the ball before the tackled player had time to exercise his options"
Understand that the WF must not be off his feet but don't understand the above.
Are you saying that tackled player has to be given time to "exercise his options" before WF can challenge for ball?
Surely if WF stays on his feet he can challenge for the ball before, during and after a tackle. And he can use his hands unless/until a ruck forms?
|
|
|
ctrainor
|
Fri, 28 March 08 11:26 GMT
|
Had a game last week at level 7 where I had to penalise a Defending WF a few times for arriving at the tackle leaningover/resting on the tackled player with body or knees on him ad trying to wrestle the ball before the tackled player had time to exercise his options.
Penalised him for going off his feet. See it not given in showbiz but I was clear in my mind.
Eventually he changed to my style but had to laugh when I heard him say to his captain. "this guy doesn't know what bridging is!!"
|
-------------------------
Ciaran Trainor |
|
|
zackly
|
Mon, 10 March 08 17:06 GMT
|
Well ! . . . . . . I've had a few games since last posting. including a few U18s. (see also concurrent Bridging & Latching thread).
These players wanted to ignore most of the Tackle Laws (LoG 15) because their coaches told them to Bridge, Seal, Latch - whatever - and both players & coaches have seen these techniques routinely "taught" on TV.
These few games also told me that other referees are applying TV Showbiz standards to the immediate post-tackle phase of play. My stricter application made life difficult, since it was against the grain of recent practices.
Applying many of the many parts of LoG 15 (such as 15.5(b) part 2) merely confused them and spoilt their potential enjoyment of the game. They WANTed & EXPECTed to "ruck" as their TV heroes do with bodies in great heaps on & around the tackled ball carrier & ball. Endless penalising killed the game for them. Coaches become very confused, frustrated - and fractious - also.
So . . . . just to "try to keep my customers staisfied" (by not confusing them) I'm going to adopt TV Showbiz standards for the Tackle & post_Tackle. Sorry if you're disappointed - but I suspect that many Community referees already have done just that !
|
|
|
the whistleblower
|
Mon, 18 February 08 08:49 GMT
|
Zackly, I referee at L.9, and routinely ping players for going off their feet at rucks (and quickly whistle the accidental pile-up of bodies as unplayable, so the option of jumping on it doesn't arise). I find that early penalties usually clear up the mess at the breakdowns. While players will often push the boundary, they have no problems adjusting to my style once it is clear to them, which leads me to suppose that my actions are not out of line with my colleagues'. The Society is very clear that what we see on TV is inappropriate at normal Society level, irrespective of what may happen at Group or national level.
|
-------------------------
Whistleblower |
|
|
HighsideUK
|
Sun, 17 February 08 23:43 GMT
|
Zackly:
Guilty as charged. I'll shut up now or start my own thread.
ob and whisteblower:
Thank you for taking the time to attempt to convince me of the error of my ways. I'm not sure that everything that you said was right, but I think a lot of it was, and all of it was interesting and informative.
|
|
|
[
NEXT
|
LAST
]
|
|
|
