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jclark
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Fri, 07 March 08 21:59 GMT
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I agree with ....Jas?....I was very surprised to observe and experience some odd selections at U15 and U16 county level a little while ago. And when I sat on our County's Youth Committee I suggested we bring in coaches from neighbouring Counties to stop the nepotism that was happening at trials in our own.
But beyond that, there was an outrageous Pubic/state school incident when my son (from a state school) was chosen to play at 10 for the County....and I'm not sure how this can ever be controlled/dealt with.
One particular (famous) public school in our county also had players selected at 9, 12 and 11 with a reserve at 10. In the first half my son touched the ball TWICE! With the ball going into the scrum/ruck/maul and out via 9 and, most often, a long pass to his mate at 12, or to his other mate on the wing! Needless to say, my son was replaced by the reserve 10 at H/T, most probably because he was ho-rse from shouting by then, but guess what happened in the second half? The ball went down the line as you'd expect it to ....from 9 to 10 to 12. You see, the Public sschool mateys did they own selection out on the pitch during the game; they just didn't want another 10 in the team, just their own mate. My son was so disgusted he boycotted county trials thereafter, but went on to play for his university and our club's 1st XV's after he left school.
This message edited on Fri, 07 March 08 by jclark
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imhilton
- Imhilton@aol.com
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Sat, 01 March 08 13:09 GMT
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I have no comment on the bias issues.
Agree with ob. Would it be prudent to adopt weakones selection policy combining and including the County & club coaches as well? Therefore, all are involved with input.
The County coaches (biased or not) need to inform the selectors/spotters what their remit is!
I raised a question on the youth forum about 18 months ago asking how Counties planned their development/coaching/selection etc. The feedback was each County does it differently.
One question, do Counties all have to do it the same? There may not be a problem if it is done differently. Providing it is seen to be fair.
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ob
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Fri, 29 February 08 17:02 GMT
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The issue of bias is very difficult to prove or disprove, but selecting a squad by a democratic process that excludes the people who are going to coach it is surely a recipe for disaster.
They know what they want in a team, and would select players who fit that. The other coaches may well have different criteria.
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weakone
- slfaithfull@aol.com
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Fri, 29 February 08 16:37 GMT
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Simon
I envy your CB and our lads will also envy the opportunity to be assessed fairly.
If this is a RFU template, then the RFU has failed. Because we get nothing like this.
We do not get issues over preferrential selection for Public schools. Because there are only a couple and they are not so focused on rugby. However, we do have grammar schools. These seem to gain that preference. Basically because their sports teachers make themselves busy within the County set-up. It smacks of self interest.
How do you avoid it?... From the top down! Does this happen?...never!
Each week against the opposition sides we play, there are potentially one maybe two good lads that should play for their county. When I frequently discuss this with their coaches. The apathy and distrust is emmence.
It is such a waste of talent. I personally believe in our county. They only get to see a fraction of the good lads due to this distrust and apathy.
How do you change this stigma?
I suggest that all county trials within our county should be run by four or five coaches (who are selected by the county) But they do not select the players. Then every club coach or school master for that year group should be a spotter. He is not allowed to mark is own lads nominated. But he can mark and assess all the others.
Therefore, every club buys into it, because their coaches are asked to attend and assist. Then all the marks are correlated from every different coach and then you have a very unbiased selection process which has the input of twenty-thirty club coaches and school masters.
It is transparant and avoids distrust because every coach has had some input.
Why o why does this not happen? Because it defies my believe.
Answers on a postcard please
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the whistleblower
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Wed, 27 February 08 17:50 GMT
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In reference to a separate thread on a slightly different topic, it would be interesting to know how many of the players attend independent schools compared to those in the state sector. Is this information available?
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Whistleblower |
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ian davies
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Sat, 02 February 08 20:54 GMT
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The Hampshire way Simon describes meets the requirement under "Every Child Matters" that each child has the opportunity to reach their full potential and life chances.
The Hampshire Way has set up 3 Bronze Groups. Coaches from clubs mini section recommended the 2 "best players" from their under 13 age group.
These players were then brought together with players recommended by Hants U14, 15 & 16 age groups so that in the words of the County Manager Mike Glogg that no stone is turned left unturned in the search of rugby talent and potential.
Players have received skills and conditioning coaching from top County coaches that they would not be exposed to at club level.
My son's ambition is to be a professional rugby player. My wife and I looked at the English route and previously it meant we would have had to pay for him to go to an Independent School costing us >£100k. He has now progressed to the Silver Group and we can look at State Education coupled with top class coaching from Premiership Academy staff.
At long last players from all walks of life have the opportunity to achieve their potential in England.
This message edited on Sat, 02 February 08 by ian davies
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Jas9Mg#$
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Tue, 29 January 08 14:30 GMT
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I hate being critical but I am afraid I am, particularly with regard to one school who seem to believe that their players have a god given right to higher honours. Most people in my area know who this is.
I had to laugh the other night because I was reading Lawrence Dallaglio's book and he relates a personal bitter experience of EXACTLY the situation we are talking about. I could have written it myself. I may come back on this one and quote the exact passage because it really was both spooky and humourous reading it.
Lets' hope other areas FULLY take on board the Hampshire model if it is as successful as you suggest. Well done.
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milligani
- iandmilligan@btinternet.com
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Tue, 29 January 08 10:35 GMT
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Having read this with some interest the model Simon recounted looks brilliant. Obviously the organisation and infrastructure behind this must fully support the process. This must be a model which could be used as best practise across other CBs etc where some of the practises Jas9Mg#$ refers to are present.
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Spike |
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Jas9Mg#$
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Mon, 28 January 08 16:35 GMT
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Great comments gentlemen and very objective thank you. I believe it must be different in different parts of the country and perhaps different age groups then. My experience is very similar in essence to yours (clipboards etc) but - and I have no wish to sound sinister here -other influences are exerted regarding final selection. I know because I've been there and had certain things confirmed to me by people most certainly in the know. I now just laugh it off but those who do this should be ashamed and they know who they are. Just because someone plays for a certain recognised rugby playing elite school does not mean they are a better player than Joe Bloggs. Unfortunately he who shouts loudest seems to get heard and there seems to be a bit of a clique amongst the coaches of these schools.
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dshefras
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Mon, 28 January 08 15:53 GMT
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Hi Simon.
Thanks, this is great feedback, I was one of those coaches!! Just to add to this, the 2 days of matches were the end of the long process to whittle down almost 500 players into a 45 player squad.
Around 4-500 players are assessed on core skills, (handling, running lines, contact, fitness and agility) The players are scored A, B and C by a number of assessors watching groups of around 25 players each. No one knows where the players go to school, you can tell which rugby club they beling to by their shirts, however, there are many players who are not members of clubs that make it through the assessment process.
The players who score straight A's are invited to join the festival teams. Once the straight A's get through then the next best players are invited until the 4 squads are made up.
Every player gets a report that gives them their gradings and with comments on what they need to work on to improve. It is VERY fair, there is no focus on schools at all.
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the whistleblower
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Mon, 28 January 08 12:45 GMT
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I wouldn't disagree that the easy option for county selection and above is to go with the public school players, but the elite clubs cast their net more widely. To their credit, their academies are drawn largely from "local" (i.e. say a 30-mile radius) club sides, with whom they often have a loose coaching relationship. Of course, whether academies are a Good Thing is another question entirely!
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Whistleblower |
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Jas9Mg#$
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Mon, 28 January 08 11:21 GMT
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In my experience at what I believe is a high level in junior club rugby (under 16s) there isn't the difference in quality.The only difference is that no one bothers to watch the best club sides so when it comes to selection for county, region and country too many club players are being overlooked or losing out to players from Public schools who are "supposed" to be better. I never realised that this happens and it has been a bit of an eye opener this year but the selection process is far too incestuous to the detriment to club players - I feel fully qualified to make that statement. In the long run it is the elite game that will lose out by allowing this to continue.
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the whistleblower
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Wed, 02 January 08 08:57 GMT
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Actually, I think the seeds were sown far earlier, in the 1960's, when it became fashionable to imagine that sport was elitist, because for every winner there were multiple losers. I won't ascribe that philosophy to any particular political party, as all have been complicit in its implementation over the years - whether as such, or indirectly through the sale of playing fields or the marginalisation of sport in the timetable. But it remains my view that the reintroduction of sport as a major societal objective is the closest thing we are ever likely to see to a magic bullet that can address most of our current society's worst problems.
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Whistleblower |
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Mon, 24 December 07 11:05 GMT
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ah steve... this is educational "progress",
It started around 1984.
Funny that.
didds
ps allegedly
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steve johnson
- sehjohnson@hotmail.com
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Mon, 24 December 07 00:43 GMT
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From my own experience, I would suspect that the problem is even more deeply embedded than most know, and I don't think it is a rugby/soccer issue. As a PE teacher, I took a "year's break" to travel in 1975, and in the year before I left, my school ran 17 autumn/winter teams EVERY WEEKEND, (5 rugby, 5 soccer, 5 hockey, 2 netball), and in the summer we had athletics, rounders and cricket galore. Nearly all the schools around us did. You can imagine the number of committed teachers needed to support that kind of programme in A STATE SCHOOL.
When I returned "a year later" in 1990, and started teaching at another state school, I was told that the rugby (and soccer) teams had "a pretty good season, they have 2 or 3 games each." Not on Saturday mornings as in the 70's, but after school - the games having to finish before sunset.
I had read about the number of (frequently meaningless) meetings teachers had to attend, and so their commitment to after-school sport naturally diminished. Until a framework is created that enables teachers in state schools to find the time to coach after school sport, there will never be parity WITHIN THE SCHOOLS. Clubs will do what they can, but the day to day identity of talent among the students can only be done by the PE teachers, and how interested/passionate are they? (Or has the passion been "meeted" out of them?)
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SteveJinJapan |
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the whistleblower
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Mon, 10 December 07 16:22 GMT
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There OP raises a number of different but related issues. The primary one is that Continuum-aged children at private schools get better faster, because they play more (and have intensive coaching). This is true and inevitable - such schools value sport far more than does a state school. But it is not necessarily a real problem. Many children only take up rugby at Secondary level (which may be aged 12 or 13 depending on the school system in place locally). By the time they transition from Colts to Adult, they will have been playing 15-a-side for up to seven years. In that context, any gap a private school pupil may have created over their state school compatriots when playing Continuum variations is pretty irrelevant. There's plenty of time to recover.
A bigger problem in my view is the paucity of state schools offering decent sports coaching and inter-school games. When I'm Secretary of State for education, school will finish at 6pm and the hours between 2 and 4 will be spend doing sport every day. The objective will be to produce sporting champions in the way Australia did after its worst-ever showing at the 1976 Montreal Olympics, when their 184 athletes won just 1 silver and four bronze medals. Who now would expect anything less than 40 medals from an Aussie olympic team, and that's quite apart from the successful rugby union and league teams, the cricket team and the netball teams. Rumour has it that they can play soccer too. It all comes from the schools.
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Whistleblower |
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MarK$y6#j
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Thu, 06 December 07 23:25 GMT
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Hi Didds agree with some of your feedback and thanks for the info we may as a club approach the local council to get the funding. I think the RFU is responsible for this when i was a we lad up north there were 2 sports rugby and football it is safe to say that our national rugby team is a damn site more successful than a national football team with a world cup final and a runners up medal. The fault lies firstly with the government who do not give enough money to state run schools for sports education, secondly with the rfu and thirdly with every club i the country to set up a partnership with all our local schools also introducing tag at primary school is not much of a bad idea. The rfu revenue would stream in from all the school training they would need to provide and the country would really have two national sports. The bottom line is we as a nation are better at rugby than any other major sport and i just dont think enough is being done.
This message edited on Thu, 06 December 07 by MarK$y6#j
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Thu, 06 December 07 10:50 GMT
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our local authority (district council) provides funding for us as a club to provide input to schools. This first term (2 terms?) up to Xmas we focus on the local secondary schools and after Xmas on primary schools (to coincide with a Tag estival promoted by the local authority).
That said it is still WRT the OP too little ... typically it means that only year 11 (say) gets rugby from the club in this regard at high school, and year 6 at primary.
A couple of other club coaches do stuff at schools off their own back and unpaid.
The bottom line I guess is that there just ain;t the funds available to promote rugby in the way that we might all like. Allied to the fact that in all reality state provision of sport may never reach the levels attained by private schools even if duirect funding etc was available to promote the sport becaue if nothing else (I perceive) state schools don;t have the saturday morning and midweek evening sports "time" available to them, and not do they have the smaller class sizes=more direct educational input that frees up time to play sport more.
Given that football (aka soccer) gets more time allegedly in state schools (and understandbly why) how does that compare to private schools (notwithstanding the social context of football may paint a different comparison anyway?)
didds
This message edited on Thu, 06 December 07 by didds
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MarK$y6#j
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Wed, 05 December 07 18:58 GMT
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I am a coach with Abingdon RFC and coach the under 9's. My team have recently played a public school and they played an exceptionally high standard of rugby. My concern is that club players who go to state run schools and have potential fall behind there counterparts at private school who play a lot more rugby. What is in place by the RFU to give every potential world class player the equal opportunity to excel and get the extensive training and fine tuning they need. I think this is a big issue and as we always harp on in rugby about equal opportunity i think we fail the state run school children. Even at secondary state schools football is pushed much more than rugby. Is there any direction governing the integration of local rugby clubs and local schools firstly to get more players to the game and secondly to really push the rugby "community" spirit that we all carry within. We are about to engage in a partnership with one of our local secondary schools so any info would be appreciated.
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