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tobyspencer
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Sat, 27 September 08 09:27 GMT
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>>Is it just the 6 of us who read this?
>I suspect so, yes.
Plenty of us read it when we can find it. The many deficiencies of the RFU website and RFU communications have been well documented elsewhere (noticably in our clubhouse bar ;-)
The forum is a useful conduit for info and great for junior and less experienced clubs to get a feel for the subtleties of the laws and what goes on outside their little area of the county.
Cheers.
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Paulf$4XTk
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Sat, 27 September 08 09:27 GMT
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>>Is it just the 6 of us who read this?
>I suspect so, yes.
Plenty of us read it when we can find it. The many deficiencies of the RFU website and RFU communications have been well documented elsewhere (noticably in our clubhouse bar ;-)
The forum is a useful conduit for info and great for junior and less experienced clubs to get a feel for the subtleties of the laws and what goes on outside their little area of the county.
Cheers.
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HighsideUK
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Mon, 22 September 08 18:31 GMT
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What's all the fuss?
Even if your U9s didn't do contact until Sept, you've still had at least 4 weeks of it before an October festival?
Since you have been diligent in not covering contact until now, then presumably you have "done" everything else and have been able to concentrate on it.
After a month's worth of practicing they should be ready to start doing it for real!
We have an early Oct minis festival in our neck of the woods too (Wootton Bassett). It's always eagerly anticipated.
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pauldg
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Mon, 22 September 08 16:30 GMT
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>Calm down chaps.
>It's our festival.
>Been running for years and seems to go down well with the clubs who come.
I'm sure it does. But, as you know, many clubs/coaches/parents take festivals far too seriously!
>Is it just the 6 of us who read this?
I suspect so, yes.
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PaulDG |
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ealing bill
- wjgrist@tiscali.co.uk
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Mon, 22 September 08 16:10 GMT
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Calm down chaps.
It's our festival.
Been running for years and seems to go down well with the clubs who come.
Is it just the 6 of us who read this?
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pauldg
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Mon, 22 September 08 13:19 GMT
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>ealing bill - just don't go to the festival in October if you feel your squad are not only disadvantaged by following RFU guidelines, but are also relatively unsafe as a direct result.
Agreed.
Personally I'd say it's crazy to play mini age groups and U13s in festivals as soon as October.
The kids aren't ready, the coaches are inexperienced and as they're generally the referees too, well, lets say it really doesn't bode well!
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PaulDG |
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Mon, 22 September 08 13:04 GMT
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plasters etc - and aspirin etc - have been banned from 1st aid kits for years in the workplace.
welcome to progress.
didds
This message edited on Mon, 22 September 08 by didds
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Mon, 22 September 08 13:03 GMT
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ealing bill - just don't go to the festival in October if you feel your squad are not only disadvantaged by following RFU guidelines, but are also relatively unsafe as a direct result.
I'd let the aorgainsers, and CB authorities know exactly why you feel this too.
didds
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ealing bill
- wjgrist@tiscali.co.uk
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Sun, 21 September 08 21:56 GMT
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So, we reach the new season having followed the RFU directive that we cannot teach tackling from Feb, and what do we find?
Every other s****** club has ignored it and we look like mugs. October festival for our U9's looks like it will not be a fun day out.
But, the point is: this was a regulation which was not communicated and therefore guaranteed confusion.
It's not the rule that's the problem, it's the dissemination of it.
It is ironic that this dispensation was removed because coaches were 'ignoring the regulations'.
Also, have you heard that scissors and plasters are officially banned from First Aid Kits?
Bet you are sorry you know that now?
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gerard_jenkins
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Thu, 05 June 08 15:05 GMT
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What I meant by "just run at and hit" was held up by someone who has a line of players that run at the bag make a tackle it's picked up and then the next has a go. The other thing about the square is more about fitness and when tired technique is usually forgotten and thats when injuries occur. We're specifically focussing on technique but its against a softer inanimate object. However I do take the point about changing to a player that also has something to think about.
The point about experiences in France, your players aside, support my view that we introduce contact too soon. Space and evasion does get forgotten about and I think there are too many things to think about for 9yo's and they focus on the now which is the tackle.
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Gerard Jenkins |
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newcoach
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Thu, 05 June 08 12:48 GMT
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"When we were U8's the kids were the same about contact and at U9 they just looked for the tackle they forgot the evasion and space and in all honesty we didn't get that back until U11's."
That's really interesting. We recently took a complete U8 team to France to compete in a contact tournament for the first time (but that's another debate). In France they play contact from U7 so you would think that we would stand no chance against teams who had been playing that format for nearly 3 years. However, what was clearly evident to me was that our players ran so much better than the French sides. We looked for space and tried to avoid being tackled whereas the French seemed to look for the tackle. I can tell you that our approach was far more effective. It would be a shame if we lose that during the U9 season. Equally, considering the reputation the French have for open, running play, I wonder where that all changes for them?!
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Thu, 05 June 08 09:27 GMT
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gerard - all reasonable and fair points, but the key here is your final sentence.
That said, your small square excercise could still be run using "live" targets, which could also utilise the drill to practise their own presentation skills post tackle (but no 10m grids!). As confidence grows, the ball carriers could walk trowards the tackler as soon as (s)he is on their feet, then into a jog, then a trot, then a run etc etc etc.
didds
cheers
didds
This message edited on Thu, 05 June 08 by didds
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the whistleblower
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Wed, 04 June 08 21:09 GMT
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I believe the long sausage tackle bag is, and always was, a waste of everyone's time. You can run at and bosh a bag all day, but with the exception of an enthusiastic No.7 with plenty of defensive backup, no-one would attempt a real tackle in that way in a game situation.
I'm with Didds - devise realistic game-based tackle situations, where the attacker is prepared to try to get beyond the tackle, and the tackler has a problem if he misses it. If you are trying to boost the confidence of the tackler, ideally the attacker should be smaller than the tackler - and you need to limit the attacker's lateral options as well.
I find a good excercise is as follows: defenders on the goal-line, ball on the 5m line, attackers 5m back from the 5m line. Four cones on the 5m line, with the gaps between them marked A, B, and C. Attacker can't set off until he receives the ball; defender can start when the ball is passed. As the ball is passed, coach calls A, B or C to denote the channel to be attacked and defended. Defenders score 1pt for each successful defence of the goal-line, attackers score 1pt for each try scored.
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Whistleblower |
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gerard_jenkins
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Wed, 04 June 08 15:44 GMT
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We have small tackle bags specifically for the kids. We use these for fitness drills in a small square, ie on the belly in the middle up tackle back to middle on belly up tackle 2nd bag and so on. Do this twice and they're puffing but for us it highlights getting into position to make the tackle and the techinique needed while puffing. The other thing we use them for is defensive lines where we have arm up by first defender, all calling ready, ready etc up hit and back still in a line together. Then up again and back but move across this time and someone else comes in as the "now" shout. Another good one for getting them communicating is standing in front with a ball held out, they're calling ready, ready and if ball moves to left they all move across shouting where they're going and hit appropriate bag. This is done from no more than 2m away.
So are tackle bags redundant? No I don't think so providing they're used effectively and not just run at and hit.
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Gerard Jenkins |
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Wed, 04 June 08 14:03 GMT
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"Those that will tackle will tackle and those that don't like it won't no matter what their age. Even the ones that don't like it still hit the tackle bags like demons but the real thing no-way. "
which possibly suggests that practising on tackle bags is redundant. Why not start tackling practise on live targets, and continue to do so - never use tackle bags at all.
In fact I;d have to say that overall, especially at these young ages, tackle bags are arguabbly totally inappropriate. Their size and bulk means any tackle an 8 or 9 year old (or older!) makes on one is unlikely to be at all effective (can a 8 year old knock a tackle bag over, with a full arm wrap?), let alone with a good technique (stepping in close, driving with the planted foot through the tackle) as opposed to launching themselves almost horizontally from feet away ).
All too often tackling sessions end up with the ball carrier or the tackler running at the other from several metres; if anything is going to put off somebody that is already having reservations about tackling it is somebody else running full pelt at them from what seems miles away. Set up practices such that the tackler is only a metre away at most - enough space to get the body position lowered in time without anybody getting any speed up at all.
didds
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gerard_jenkins
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Wed, 04 June 08 09:57 GMT
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Take your points and don't disagree with anything you say. My experience was positive about not practicing tackling in advance. Those that will tackle will tackle and those that don't like it won't no matter what their age. Even the ones that don't like it still hit the tackle bags like demons but the real thing no-way. So in this regard the better ball skills, the more organised and the better communication skills will always overcome a team weaker in these areas but better tacklers just from the point of view of controlling the ball and understanding what they're doing. We often practice unopposed with the backs only where I am the supposed contact as I move around and if I shout tackle the ball carrier is out of the game I count to 4 loudly before the SH passes the short time means they have to get onto positions and reorganise quickly to receive the ball again. You could translate this to tag in that everytime there is a tackle 2 players must be running either side and a 3rd acts as SH to pass out. Then next year all you need to do is the 2 either side supporting players will be joining. If they can master this then teach them how to present the ball and you'll be flying....... I honestly believe that although tackling is really important to be taught how to do but they'll do it anyway and if it's just part of what you do they'll hopefully believe passing, support, talking to each other is even better.
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Gerard Jenkins |
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Tag art
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Tue, 03 June 08 20:17 GMT
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Gerard,
not blunt at all and I take your point about switches, loops, lines of running etc. These are all on our agenda for this year, as well as reinforcing the basic skills they have already mastered, but your point about what they see on the TV and with other age groups is a real issue. Kids who play football, play the same game they see on the TV, but our kids play a game barely recognisable as the one that attracted them in the first place.
The other issue that grates is that the schools seem unfettered by such restrictions. The prep schools in our area are already teaching contact which gives us two problems. Confusing for the kids we have (not many), and very unfair when we come up against a club in season 09/10 who are populated with a majority of kids who have been mashing each other up for a year.
Final part of rant: This communication on this issue has been appalling by the RFU. Apparently this dispensation was withdrawn three years ago and yet until now we were blissfully unaware and continued as previously up until this coming season. We are not alone either, our nearest neighbours know only of it because we just tol them and were preparing, as we were, for a limited introduction in Feb 09.
If the RFU were that worried, you would have thought they would have gone to greater lengths to ensure that everyone knew about it.
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gerard_jenkins
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Tue, 03 June 08 17:49 GMT
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There's lots they can learn. For example they can learn more about organising themselves in both attack and defence. They can develop their communication skills. They can learn some moves such as a switch. When kids get to U13's skill aquisition doesn't stop just because they are playing the same game they were playing the year before, they continue to learn in all aspects of the game and also about themselves.
When we were U8's the kids were the same about contact and at U9 they just looked for the tackle they forgot the evasion and space and in all honesty we didn't get that back until U11's. In my opinion contact shouldn't be introduced until U11's but I do understand the opposing argument to this when competing against other sports and what they see on TV. I'm also taking account that my son is a FR forward and not the most nimble or quick and he feels he contributes more in a game in the tight but you don't need to be quick to hold a defender and then release someone into space. If all players could do this at u8 then great get into contact but they can't and some of the teams we played at U12's this season still can't do it.
Hope this doesn't come across as blunt but my thoughts. BTW even though we could have introduced tackling in feb under the Continium as it was then we chose not to and we didn't loose any of our squad of 40.
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Gerard Jenkins |
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gerard_jenkins
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Tue, 03 June 08 17:48 GMT
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There's lots they can learn. For example they can learn more about organising themselves in both attack and defence. They can develop their communication skills. They can learn some moves such as a switch. When kids get to U13's skill aquisition doesn't stop just because they are playing the same game they were playing the year before, they continue to learn in all aspects of the game and also about themselves.
When we were U8's the kids were the same about contact and at U9 they just looked for the tackle they forgot the evasion and space and in all honesty we didn't get that back until U11's. In my opinion contact shouldn't be introduced until U11's but I do understand the opposing argument to this when competing against other sports and what they see on TV. I'm also taking account that my son is a FR forward and not the most nimble or quick and he feels he contributes more in a game in the tight but you don't need to be quick to hold a defender and then release someone into space. If all players could do this at u8 then great get into contact but they can't and some of the teams we played at U12's this season still can't do it.
Hope this doesn't come across as blunt but my thoughts. BTW even though we could have introduced tackling in feb under the Continium as it was then we chose not to and we didn't loose any of our squad of 40.
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Gerard Jenkins |
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Tag art
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Tue, 03 June 08 16:35 GMT
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Don't know if this thread has gone dead, but the issue is very alive for us as we try to find a way to make the U8 year interesting for the kids. If the Continuum is about skill acquisition, what will they learn this year that we couldn't teach them last year? Some (most) of our kids have been with us since U6 and they are getting bored with the same old already. Every week they look across the pitch and see other age groups developing their game and this year, apart from the 7 tag rule (that'll tax them!), nothing new.
Understand that some kids are nervous (although most are gagging for it), but parents? Where did they think they were bringing their little darling, ballet?
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newcoach
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Tue, 06 May 08 23:32 GMT
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You're missing the point. The RFU approve and insure this tour...yet the continuum says we cannot prepare for it. How can that be?
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rugbytom
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Tue, 06 May 08 16:27 GMT
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It has to make sense to defer this trip until these kids are older - a couple of weeks training is not safe for matches against players who have been playing contact for up to 18 months prior.
Choose an English destination for U8, and go to France when they are older and can deal with the Law variations and physical aspect better.
Holt RFC do a great tour with a full day at an activity centre and competitive fun rugby on the Sunday.
Retention is not the issue here - it is safety.
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pauldg
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Tue, 06 May 08 13:52 GMT
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There's more to this than "health & safety" as was made clear in the note from the RFU.
It's also about retention of players.
While we all know many U8s (even some U6s..) are gagging for contact, there are others who are dead scared of it (and so are their parents) and giving them the few more months to mature seems to be a large part of what this is all about.
So, IMHO, the "theory" regarding a tour to France should be that, as you'll only be taking the players who are keen to play contact, the retention fears are unfounded.
However, the problem is that tour selection isn't as simple as that - kids go if their parents can pay and perhaps some of the kids with keen *dads* aren't really as keen themselves..
So I wouldn't be at all surprised if the RFU came down on the side of U8s, no contact and if you organise a contact tour for U8s, you wont get RFU permission to go.
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PaulDG |
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milligani
- iandmilligan@btinternet.com
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Tue, 06 May 08 13:22 GMT
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To newcoach:
Having read the relevant pages there seems to be no mention of such dispensation, however I would suggest that you contact your RDO (Rugby development officer) and lobby for their support for this. Based on the fact the matches are likely to be contact based in France there must be a Health & Safety risk in not coaching them. (However a flaw in this argument would be that it is a heath & safety risk in taking them to a contact match if they haven't been trained - therefore don't take them instead of training them for it).
My opinion is that a tour like this is excellent for the players and if you can manage the contact out of your normal games then all is well.
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Spike |
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newcoach
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Tue, 06 May 08 12:29 GMT
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I'll ask again...is there a special dispensation for preparation for overseas tours? For a number of years now our club has taken U8s to compete in France where they play contact from U7.
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