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Anthony Wiggins
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Thu, 24 April 08 17:38 GMT
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I was exaggerating to make a point but yours is a fair one. We will proceed as per the rules of course. I hope others will follow suit.
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HighsideUK
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Tue, 22 April 08 13:01 GMT
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A Wiggins:
"I have heard that it takes 4 months to correctly introduce contact to a seasoned tagger and even the continuum states that contact training should be introduced slowly (or words to that effect)."
This is an over-reaction.
If a new boy turns up as an U9 are you going to tell him he can't tackle for 4 months - or maybe only 2 since he is not a "seasoned tagger"?
The point is that if all the boys turn up to their first contact game in Oct having spent about 4 weeks learning to tackle then it would be fair for everybody. If you can't teach them enough to be safe in 4 weeks then you might as well give up.
You will not keep an 8 year old's attention on "safety in the tackle" for more than an hour or two spread over several weekends. After that they will just not concentrate unless you actually let them play games and actually do the tackling at full speed - and they can do this during the season.
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osmona
- andrew.osmond@virgin.net
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Mon, 21 April 08 20:39 GMT
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Anthony
Message from Gary is reproduced below:-
****************************************** ******
Ladies and Gentlemen
Following a numb e r of enquiries regarding the preparation of Under 8s for th e Under 9 season, which has highlighted some confusion, the Continuum Review Group has issued the following statem ent:
"Until three years ago the Continuum perm itted the introduction to tackling for Under 8s from Febru ary in preparation for Under 9s the following season.
However the Continuum Review Group was inundated w ith comp laints that coaches were not concentrating solely on the sa fe introduction to tackling but moving onto rucks , mauls et c and then arranging "training games" using thes e technique s against other clubs. It was found that player s with birth day's late in the year (thus often small in si ze) were bein g put off returning the following season and as this introd uction to contact coincided with the Festiva l season, some players were tempted to tackle in these gam es and not just "tag".
As a consequence of this , tackling is not permitted until September of their Under 9 season and shou ld follow RFU guidelines and the Tacklin g Progressions as d elivered on the "rugbyready" and the RF U Level 1 course"
Regards
Gary Towns end
Coach Development Manager
** ********************** ***********************
W hilst I understand your concerns I personally think that t he message is, firstly, very clear and, secondly, the deci sion has been taken quite simply because too many coaches have been abusing the disp ensation and compromising safety in general.
Th e problem though is that whatev er rules are put in place - and I support the CRG on this one on the basis of too many kids being put off - inappror iate coaches will continue to abuse the Continuum and othe r guidelines.
Perso nally I feel far more empha sis should be put on clubs to ad equately vet and develop J unior Section coaches and referee s to ensure that Junior r ugby is both enjoyable and safe fo r ALL and not just those that show a flair early on in thei r playing careers and w ho's development will keep them at t he top of the pile in the local Festivals.
Regar ds
Andrew< br>
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Anthony Wiggins
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Mon, 21 April 08 20:16 GMT
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Our club has now received an edict from the RFU (more specifically the Continuum Review Board) stating that no tackle training can be undertaken with current U8's until September i.e. the start of next season.
They have given reasons relating to child safety but surely not training the children once the season is over and introducing contact in a staged and careful non competitive way is better than ruling out contact training all together or possibly rushing it in September. As a parent this worries me. I want my child and his playmates to begin tackle training asap for their own safety and enjoyment. I have heard that it takes 4 months to correctly introduce contact to a seasoned tagger and even the continuum states that contact training should be introduced slowly (or words to that effect).
We are essentially leaving tackle training to parents over the summer months. They are likely to get it wrong. It is not their fault. Coaches have been trained - so they should not be hog-tied in this way. If some have bent the rules and put U8's in competitive matches before being an U9 then they need dealing with individually. At the moment the few have spoilt it for the many.
This ruling is over the top and counter productive. I am at best an amateur but even I can see this.
I hope I have read the edict incorrectly and we can begin tackle training but not commemce matches.
In short - tackle training before September for U8's - just a yes or no please RFU?
Anthony Wiggins
Telford Hornets Junior Section
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the whistleblower
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Mon, 21 April 08 19:14 GMT
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What was the score? My U.13's won their league game 103-0. Not a pretty sight, adn I suspect not at all what the instigators of the league intended.
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Whistleblower |
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Mon, 21 April 08 09:17 GMT
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newbs... the conversations in this forum are roman all over the place mate...
do you give your lot some sort of pep pill on sat afternoon then? Or did the oppo turn up with their 2nd XV?
didds
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Sun, 20 April 08 09:26 GMT
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ball8etc...
Render unto Caesar etc ....
;-)
didds
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HighsideUK
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Fri, 18 April 08 12:20 GMT
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Guys! Let's not get too negative.
The fact is there is not the money to make this all perfect.
All our clubs are run by volunteers and run on fresh air and enthusiasm. (Oh- and bar takings).
The situation at my club as regards organisation/communication is utterly hopeless and yet I find it a great comfort to read on this Forum that
a) Many others are having similar problems.
b) Some clubs seem to do much better which suggests the system CAN work much better than it does.
So, comfort, sympathy and hope. What more do you need?
Nil desperandum. Fight the good fight!
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the whistleblower
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Fri, 18 April 08 12:01 GMT
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<The RFU turnover is in the £80m territory. >
Much of which will have to be spent compensating an England head coach whose performance record exceeds that of Sir Clive Woodward at the same stage in his career, adn then paying his unqualified successor to learn the ropes.
Did someone mention breweries? How about running a bath?
This message edited on Fri, 18 April 08 by the whistleblower
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Whistleblower |
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ballat8sfeet
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Fri, 18 April 08 11:55 GMT
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NEWBS
I`am the CCC at a club close to you, & I have not seen anything from the RFU regarding this.
Obviously takes a long time for things to sink from the top of the county down to us at the bottom.
P.S. Don`t give Didds anymore praise or we won`t hear the last of it.
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ealing bill
- wjgrist@tiscali.co.uk
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Fri, 18 April 08 10:29 GMT
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This is a mess.
Breweries and drinking events come to mind.
We're wasting our time on here, and so is poor old Andy since they don't seem to keep him in the loop either.
I'm personally very exasperated. We have a festival in October already organised. I bet you every other club will arrive with their U9's having done tackling since Feb because they didn't know it was banned.
The RFU turnover is in the £80m territory.
Shame.
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Fri, 18 April 08 09:04 GMT
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Newbs ... 'cos I am the (now ex) CCC to end all CCCs...
;-)
Seriously... I like many thought the Feb 1st thing was pukka. In a thread around Feb time on this very forum somebody raised the fact that the continuum seemed to no longer contain that dispensation, and a small debate occurred, at the end of which I asked a simple "yes" or "no" question, which Andy Dixon as efficiently as ever was able to provide the "no" answer to.
Using this I was able to instruct our U8 coaches that they couldnt coach tackling this season etc.
In a hand over to the new CCC, this subject cropped up, and the incoming CCC hadn't realised that I'd covered it off and checked with the CDO. Our CDO was under the same impression I was under several months ago and advised that tackling was permitted - I waded in and gave my 2p worth... CDO accepted that Andy "outranked" him (:-) and that the advice I had gleaned was the line to follow.
Gary's email appeared a few days later - could be that CDO passed on info to Gary who then followed it through. Which would mean that _maybe_ it was I that was resonsible for every CCC in the coutry being informed of the official line. *simper*
Not that I would want to claim credit for it I hasten to add, and it is of course Andy Dixon's excellent "service" that meant that it was all possible howsoever arrived at.
I thank you.
No, really, its fine.
Didds.
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Thu, 17 April 08 15:25 GMT
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Gary is the head honcho at the top of the Coaching Department - below him are the CDO's (covering regions) and below them the RDOs (typically civering counties/CBs).
Linda will I suspect have used the rugby first database to have sent the email to every registered Club Coaching Coordinator on that database. CCCs would - reasonbly - be suspected to pass on the message to those within their own club that need to know.
Yes, this requires that clubs have appointed a CCC (or at least someone regsistered with that title even if they don;t actually CCC!), yes it requires that that CCC is regsistered on the interesting system that is Rugby First (whioch I am nto a supporter of generally).
But I am unsure of what else the RFU (bless it little cotton socks) can actually be expected to do to promolgate this information. Even if it were feasible for gary/CDO/RDO/whoever tovivit every coach in the country it would still rely on the coach(es) being available and able to litsen when they called!
I would be the first to agree that the RFU's lines of communication at times don't quite make the grade, but clubs themselves have to take some responsibility at some juncture surely in some way shape or form?
didds
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Thu, 17 April 08 15:18 GMT
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"Tacking, scrums, line outs, rucking, mauling, positions for the 9 man game and having no coach on the field with the team is a very hard thing to acheive in the month of Sept for the Festivals that start in Oct. Bearing in mind a lot of players miss the 1st Sunday in Sept as schools are not back, perhaps uncontested scrums & lineouts should be a part of U8's TAG to ease the load on the U9's season "
Then again, maybe the U9s could just not play matches or festivals for another couple or so weeksr in order to help all this get sorted.
What a radical idea that might be ;-)
didds
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Dan Cottrell
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Wed, 16 April 08 14:41 GMT
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As with much of the edicts that are passed through, the Law of Rugby Jungle tends to prevail.
What I mean is that the age group laws are seen as "guidelines" by many and to be ignored if it suits.
How many times have you seen or heard of two sides "agreeing" on extra back row players, or another 10 minutes to give everyone a go.
Festivals are worse in some ways.
First, a helluva lot of work gets put in by the organisers. A certain point they have to give responsibility to the coaches to make sure that the rules of playing etc are carried through. We know that a number of our colleagues don't
Second, a festival creates an enviroment where there is one winner out of 4 or 5 (or even more). Not sure that is healthy up to 13 years old. I know that some teams get other cups.
Third, a four/five hour festival which keeps to the limit of game time, does not take into account warm up time and other kids activities. I can tell you you can't make them sit down all the time. Makes the rigid game timings a little redundant.
Back to the OP (!) subject:
Safety first of course, and rugby is not just about contact skills. But ultimately it is a massive factor. It is the way it is coached and practised that seems to be more important than the "age" the kids are ready.
This message edited on Wed, 16 April 08 by Dan Cottrell
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HighsideUK
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Wed, 16 April 08 13:19 GMT
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newcoach:
"Quite honestly I'm getting tired of raising the issue"
Hear, hear!
Nor do I don't want the reputation of the being the jobsworth who is always whinging about rules.
Even to ask the RFU/CB about this sort of thing feels like ratting on your club.
It almost impossible to enforce rules from the bottom up. If the RFU want the rules to be observed they must realise that they need a heirarchy that actively enforces them. With a light touch and flexibly by all means if appropriate but it has to be active and come from the top down.
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newcoach
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Wed, 16 April 08 12:18 GMT
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In my experience the guidance is simply not getting through to clubs. Since I first discovered the limit on number of matches at festivals I have tried to get this message through to at least my own club. I did raise this with the RFU and despite never receiving a direct reply, I imagine it prompted the recent publication in these forums. However, despite that message going to all CBs, we are STILL seeing tournaments in our county that exceed that limit. Quite honestly I'm getting tired of raising the issue. Do you not need to seek approval for a festival?
And as for U8 contact...how can the RFU decree that there be no contact taught at this age yet be quite happy to endorse and insure a tour to France where there is only contact for these age groups!
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andy dixon
- andydixon@rfu.com
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Tue, 15 April 08 21:01 GMT
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As I admitted earlier; I did not know this was removed from the Continuum so perhaps Gary and Linda might be forgiven the current situation.
I'll get in touch with the CRG and see how we can get this more widely communicated although personally I would like to see this dispensation put back in.
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Andy Dixon
andydixon@rfu.com |
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milligani
- iandmilligan@btinternet.com
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Tue, 15 April 08 16:58 GMT
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In our CB our county coaching co-ordinator mailed that to every coach co-ordinator at club level as well as the CB sending to youth / mini chairs for all clubs. At my club this was then emailed to all mini section coaches and in fact this was then forwarded to all the parents of both the under 7 & under 8 age groups. The message has got out - the logic behing it however seems to remain missing......IMHO
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Spike |
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HighsideUK
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Tue, 15 April 08 13:44 GMT
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I echo hullfc. How indeed?
Well lets see I expect it goes like this.....
Gary Townsend, who it says there is the "coach development manager" probably has no clear idea of how to communicate with hundreds (maybe thousands) of U8 coaches contrywide. He probably has a full time job doing something else. He has passed this directive on to Linda Fell (who, perhaps, is the organised person who does the admin) with some vague instruction about letting people know about it.
Linda knows that the CBs (Constituent Bodies) talk to clubs and so forwards this note to a load of volunteers in the CBs that may or may not read it and work out what to do with it.
Some of the volunteers in the CBs with the time, knowledege and enthusiasm will pass this on to their club contacts - maybe even the correct contacts. Sometimes it will get no further.
If and when the note makes it to the club, it is once again in the hands of a volunteer and relies on his/her application, knowledge and enthusiasm to disseminate it the coaches at his/her club. How does he do this? This club contact might be the senior club chairnman. The U8s coaches are volunteers - many may be Dads that just turn up on Sunday and help on the day. They never speak to the senior chairman or even know what he looks like.
So really, it is not surprising that everybody stumbles into this forum with no idea what the RFU want them to do!
I'm a Level 1 U10 coach now, I've been helping out since U8 and apart from at my Level 1 course I don't think I have ever had any piece of information pushed at me - I've always had to take it upon myself to go and find it out.
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pauldg
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Tue, 15 April 08 13:41 GMT
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And, BTW, if anyone in Twickenham thinks emailing (or writing to) club secretaries with this will get the job done they live on a different planet to the rest of us.
This *has* to be driven down through every coaching course run by every RFU and regional trainer in the country.
(But since Tag gets about 10 minutes on the Level 1 course I can't imagine that happening either. Actually, I can't really imagine RFU trainers even getting to hear about it.)
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PaulDG |
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hullfc
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Tue, 15 April 08 13:11 GMT
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Can I ask how this message is being disseminated (apart from this site) because ALL U8's coaches, without exception, that I have spoken to are completley unaware of this ruling and have been practicing tackling for almost three months now.
A bit late now for the current U8's but what about next seasons U8's? How are they going to find out?
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Cheers Pete |
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callump
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Tue, 15 April 08 10:34 GMT
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Message circulated from the RFU today:
==============================
From: Linda Fell
Sent: 14 April 2008 09:35
Cc: Coaching
Subject: Tackling Progressions - Important Message for CCCs
Ladies and Gentlemen
Following a number of enquiries regarding the preparation of Under 8s for the Under 9 season, which has highlighted some confusion, the Continuum Review Group has issued the following statement:
"Until three years ago the Continuum permitted the introduction to tackling for Under 8s from February in preparation for Under 9s the following season.
However the Continuum Review Group was inundated with complaints that coaches were not concentrating solely on the safe introduction to tackling but moving onto rucks, mauls etc and then arranging "training games" using these techniques against other clubs. It was found that players with birthday's late in the year (thus often small in size) were being put off returning the following season and as this introduction to contact coincided with the Festival season, some players were tempted to tackle in these games and not just "tag".
As a consequence of this, tackling is not permitted until September of their Under 9 season and should follow RFU guidelines and the Tackling Progressions as delivered on the "rugbyready" and the RFU Level 1 course"
Regards
Gary Townsend
Coach Development Manager
==============================
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spud72
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Mon, 31 March 08 23:52 GMT
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I have a foot in both camps having done U8 to U9, yes it is a distraction and all the players want to do is tackle but. Tacking, scrums, line outs, rucking, mauling, positions for the 9 man game and having no coach on the field with the team is a very hard thing to acheive in the month of Sept for the Festivals that start in Oct. Bearing in mind a lot of players miss the 1st Sunday in Sept as schools are not back, perhaps uncontested scrums & lineouts should be a part of U8's TAG to ease the load on the U9's season and to ensure that there is time to safely coach the other elements of the U9 game.
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pauldg
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Mon, 17 March 08 12:24 GMT
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You're right. It was in the 2006-7 Continuum (I still have the PDF):
2.16 UNDER 8 AGE GRADES:
....
(d) "As the end of the season approaches (but not before 1st February), tackling may be introduced into training sessions, but not into the game format until the following season at Under 9 Mini Rugby"
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PaulDG |
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