[
PLEASE LOGIN TO POST TO THE FORUM
]
|
|
|
zackly
|
Wed, 26 March 08 17:29 GMT
|
We've drifted off the Topic Title . . . . . . but for sake of those in doubt . . . .
Law 20 SCRUM Under 19 Variation (IRB LoG p.131)
20.1(f) . . . . . . . .
<< Exception : A team must have fewer than eight players in its scrum when either the team cannot field a complete team, or a player is sent off for foul play, or a player leaves the field because of injury. >>.
The key word seems to be MUST applied to numbers in a SCRUM when an entire TEAM is short in any position. Don't ask me why - just DO it !
The detailed descriptions that follow of various numbers of scrum players & their arrangement can be summed up usefully as always EQUAL and SYMMETRICAL for U19 to U13 games inclusive.
|
|
|
bill payer
|
Tue, 25 March 08 21:03 GMT
|
oops ..double post..finger trouble!
This message edited on Tue, 25 March 08 by bill payer
|
|
|
bill payer
|
Tue, 25 March 08 21:02 GMT
|
Well, you really do learn something every day. I had never read the U-19 rules that way before. I'd always assumed 7 in the scrum only if one of the pack went off or was 1 short to begin with. D'you suppose that's what they intended when they drafted it, or is it just me? I imagine that given a choice most teams would prefer to have 8 in the pack and drop the full back.
|
|
|
the whistleblower
|
Tue, 25 March 08 10:45 GMT
|
Per Gerard jenkins: "Always common sense - a forward, something needs to be sorted, a back you could probably live without a fullback. "
I'm afraid you never get to apply common sense before U.20. At all U.19 age grades, if a full-back leaves the field injured or YC, then you have to drop a forward to cover the FB position, and the forwards play without a No. 8.
Of course, this doesn't apply at the Continuum below U.12, where there is no No. 8 (see title of thread). Not sure about the U.12 position, but from U.13 to U.19, this situation applies.
|
-------------------------
Whistleblower |
|
|
garner6503
|
Mon, 24 March 08 18:57 GMT
|
I coach at my sons rugby club at u13 age group and have done so since u7 and I have noticed this does seem to be the age that the lads are picking up some of the more dark habits with regards to rucking!Our club have a strict coaching policy regarding the continium(which has perhaps cost us against some of the more "steetwise" teams!)but some of the lads are avid rugby watchers and continually see boot to body go unpunished at the higher levels of the game.We regularly play the youth sections of some of the
larger,more successful sides in Kent an I'm afraid to say that the reality is that the old style rucking game certainly is alive and well in youth grass roots rugby!
I guess its up to us coaches to coach the correct(legal)techniques and more importantly referees to CONSISTANTLY
penalise boot to body.
|
-------------------------
Ruck and Maul |
|
|
gerard_jenkins
|
Wed, 12 March 08 13:45 GMT
|
I would expect and have done so myself to take a player off to even it up in the spirit sportsmanship and of course safety. I have however experienced it when an opposition side refused to even the numbers. Always common sense - a forward, something needs to be sorted, a back you could probably live without a fullback.
|
-------------------------
Gerard Jenkins |
|
|
pauldg
|
Tue, 11 March 08 07:39 GMT
|
>In my original scenario Child leaves the field injured and cannot continue. His team have no subs, Home team has one. If I am to replace a player as opposed to carding him...
If there isn't a substitute it's then initially up to the coaches if they want to play on with unmatched numbers or if they want to lend a player or take one off the other side.
(I say "initially" because, obviously, if you decide that whatever they've decided results in an unsafe mismatch, you have the option of halting the game until they see things your way..)
(BTW, you are aware of the "30 point limit" in Continuum matches, aren't you? - that the match must be halted if a gap of 30 points opens up?
If you do get a silly mismatch, it might be worth reminding the coaches that you have to stop at 30 points difference so if one side is running tries in every 30 seconds it will be a *very* short match and not a lot of fun for anyone..)
>does that give the home team an advantage or do the sides have to be even?
There's no Continuum requirement for sides to be even - but even at festivals, everyone involved in Continuum rugby *should* be more interested in getting a fair game with learning opportunities for all players and not just winning at all costs, so you should expect coaches to want to even things up.
|
-------------------------
--
PaulDG |
|
|
ctrainor
|
Mon, 10 March 08 21:12 GMT
|
Guys, thanks for the positive advice.
I have looked at the continuum as suggested and like to think I do ref games in the spirit suggested but could you clarify one thing which I couldn't find.
In my original scenario Child leaves the field injured and cannot continue. His team have no subs, Home team has one. If I am to replace a player as opposed to carding him does that give the home team an advantage or do the sides have to be even? I do know scrums have to be at youth level.
It's not easy being the only qualified ref at your club an getting a phone call Saturday asking if you can ref games sunday particularly after 100 mile round trip saturday , which is most of my games in Cumbria, but I'll keep plugging away. I do always ask both coaches about the rules at each level before a match but Cards had never come up before!!
|
-------------------------
Ciaran Trainor |
|
|
the whistleblower
|
Mon, 10 March 08 11:58 GMT
|
<<If the occasion arose where I thought a yellow was required I would use it maybe not for 10 mins but 5. I see this as a management decision again emphasising discipline and would talk it through with the child and coach if required.>>
Unilateral action of this sort can seem like a good idea at the time, but there are all sorts of issues that you can't properly take into account at the drop of a hat. U.12 halves are nominally 20 minutes long. Your 5 minute sin-bin equates to a 20 minute bin in an international - was this doubling of the normal sanction really what you intended for an unintentional mistake by a player who is predictably less skilled than an international, being only 11?
In addition, you then have to reduce both packs to 5 under iRB laws (I assume you're less cavalier about disregarding those?), irrespective of whether the binned player was a forward or a back. This means that the ball at the base of the non-offending scrum is less controlled and less likely to be got to the backs cleanly. Was this what you intended?
IMO, we should assume that the CRG has thought these issues through, and come down in favour of the approach in the continuum regulation. I know this is sometimes hard to believe, and I hear what you say, Ciaran, about taking your whistle and heading home if they don't like the fact that you ignore the game regulations - but is that really a mature response to the legitimate expectations of the coaching team as regards a referee's role? iRB LoTG 6.a.4(a): "The referee is the sole judge of fact and of Law during a match. The
referee must apply fairly all the Laws of the Game in every match."
|
-------------------------
Whistleblower |
|
|
gerard_jenkins
|
Mon, 10 March 08 11:43 GMT
|
Paul's has answered as I would have followed up.
Funny this happened to my U12's yesterday and that's why I asked. Our referee issed a YC for a high tackle (no malice at all), I was biting my lip as YC was shown. Ref turned around to me immediately and asked me to bring another player on. At HT ref spoke to me and the player and explained that the action warranted a YC and in his opinion it was important for players to understand this. He also said that from a safety issue he did not want our team to be a man down. U12's after all was about having a fun and even contest. He spoke very well to my player and then went and spoke to oppo coach. Couldn't have asked for a better way to deal with the situation.
|
-------------------------
Gerard Jenkins |
|
|
pauldg
|
Mon, 10 March 08 07:40 GMT
|
>Intersting sombody said you can't yellow card at U12.
Yes. The RFU say it in the regulations governing U7-U12 players in England. It's called "The Continuum".
>Well a few weeks ago I sent a lad off at U12 for a dangerous high neck tackle.
No complaints from either coach or the lad's dad.
The regulations say you should ask for the player to be substituted.
>I accepted that it wasn't intentional but It was a lesson for all the players concerned that I will not tolerate foul play.
Quite right.
>If the occasion arose where I thought a yellow was required I would use it maybe not for 10 mins but 5. I see this as a management decision again emphasising discipline and would talk it through with the child and coach if required.
Why is it everyone involved in this game thinks they know more that the governing body of the sport?
>Of course if they didn't like the way I handled games I could just stay at home on a Sunday and read the paper!!!
I wouldn't go that far but it might not be a bad idea to read the regulations for the age group you're dealing with before refereeing it. They're posted on this website.
This message edited on Mon, 10 March 08 by pauldg
|
-------------------------
--
PaulDG |
|
|
ctrainor
|
Sun, 09 March 08 20:52 GMT
|
I didn't Gerard and stand by my decision. (there was 5 minutes to go)The kid had to leave the field and was in some distress he happened to be the best player on the park.
I don't think foul play should be rewarded by one player having to leave the field due to foul play and the other team get a slap on the wrist and an alternative player.
|
-------------------------
Ciaran Trainor |
|
|
gerard_jenkins
|
Sun, 09 March 08 20:14 GMT
|
But did you allow a replacement to come on for him?
This message edited on Sun, 09 March 08 by gerard_jenkins
|
-------------------------
Gerard Jenkins |
|
|
ctrainor
|
Fri, 07 March 08 20:57 GMT
|
Intersting sombody said you can't yellow card at U12.
Well a few weeks ago I sent a lad off at U12 for a dangerous high neck tackle.
No complaints from either coach or the lad's dad.
I accepted that it wasn't intentional but It was a lesson for all the players concerned that I will not tolerate foul play.
If the occasion arose where I thought a yellow was required I would use it maybe not for 10 mins but 5. I see this as a management decision again emphasising discipline and would talk it through with the child and coach if required.
Of course if they didn't like the way I handled games I could just stay at home on a sunday and read the paper!!!
|
-------------------------
Ciaran Trainor |
|
|
didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
|
Wed, 20 February 08 14:41 GMT
|
Dan I understand your point about it not being your place to step in ... but I do feel you have the "right" to have a private word with the coach afterwards...
didds
|
|
|
Dan Cottrell
|
Tue, 19 February 08 17:00 GMT
|
The game from the OP has been and gone.
I didn't referee it in the end because I had to look after my own team.
You may interested to know that one player from the side in question did get sent off.
I have yet to find out why...
The story continues.
I watched a session for U16 on Monday and a coach encouraged players to "move" players out of the way with the boot.
It was not my place to step in.
I don't think the law in this case has filtered through sufficiently.
|
|
|
northl1
|
Tue, 19 February 08 16:35 GMT
|
Didds - I see now where you are coming from. However OP talks about a team that has a reputation for doing this persistantly which indicates a problem with the appointed coach.
Surely it's a case of a hollistic approach? pre-match talks, on-field commentary of the laws, appropriate warnings, correct sanctions and escalation where necessary.
|
|
|
didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
|
Tue, 19 February 08 12:35 GMT
|
... and my point Paul was that the players COACH wasan;t the person giving the player the advice. rather somebody that is not a COACH has "coached" the player.
Where
COACH=an appointed person by a rugby club, hopefully having attended some formal RFU/WRU/SRU/NZRFU etc etc course.
and
"coach" = Uncle Bert
Its semantics, but such a "coach education" issue is a hard one to overcome as by defintion such "coaches" do not attend courses, do not read (probably!) forums such as this and almost certainly do not read the LotG.
didds
This message edited on Tue, 19 February 08 by didds
|
|
|
the whistleblower
|
Sun, 17 February 08 21:07 GMT
|
<<wonder how child protection got into the thread.. I am wondering what planet I am living on now>>
Coaches teaching children to stamp on other children using studded boots - sounds like a pretty clear-cut child protection issue to me. The children being stamped on need to be protected from the moron, surely?
|
-------------------------
Whistleblower |
|
|
pauldg
|
Fri, 15 February 08 08:48 GMT
|
>But lets not forget that "the coach" MIGHT possibly have been dad, or uncle bert, in the car coming to the match...
Very likely. And probably the last time *he* played, giving a player on the ground a "good shoeing" was acceptable.
Which is why I feel this is a coach *education* issue.
(Like so many things we discuss about regulations, etc. on the Continuum forum, in fact.)
|
-------------------------
--
PaulDG |
|
|
didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
|
Fri, 15 February 08 08:37 GMT
|
"The *coach* is the problem here".
Agreed.
But lets not forget that "the coach" MIGHT possibly have been dad, or uncle bert, in the car coming to the match...
ie there are "coaches" and there "coaches".
didds
|
|
|
ballsie
|
Thu, 14 February 08 20:46 GMT
|
I can see I am on a hiding to no where here and my tolerant approach does not ring true
Society refs doing minis most weekends
how lucky you are..thanks#
wonder how child protection got into the thread.. I am wondering what planet I am living on now..
mjb
This message edited on Thu, 14 February 08 by ballsie
|
-------------------------
Ballsie |
|
|
pauldg
|
Thu, 14 February 08 15:29 GMT
|
>The approach the referee/coach takes has to be more tolerant if it happens.
I'm afraid I totally disagree.
If a 10 year old is deliberately shoeing a player on the ground, then he/she is doing it because he or she has been *taught* to do it.
And it's something a referee can't allow - but the problem is it's almost certainly the *coach* who is really at fault.
(So the child has to be "substituted". But the club *needs* to be told about the coach!)
>and what exactly are the chances of getting society referees to ref mini rugby on a regular basis.
My youngest gets one most weeks:-)
>the referee is going to be a coach on most occasions. Aa stated early on in the thread this is a coaching problem..
I think it's a coach *education* problem!
|
-------------------------
--
PaulDG |
|
|
the whistleblower
|
Thu, 14 February 08 15:24 GMT
|
But a 10 year old can break another 10-year old's arm or neck just as easily as an adult can damage another adult.
I disagree about the tolerance. A 10-year old disbarred from a game has a momentary but deep disappointment, and will make sure he doesn't do it again. One who receives a stern talking to will file it with all the other stern talkings-to he's received that week - including the one about making his bed, picking up his clothes and remembering to bring his homework back from school!
<<As stated early on in the thread this is a coaching problem>>. Actually, it is a problem of safety and child protection. The problem is CAUSED by shocking coaching - and that's not something that can be allowed to persist. Get the child protection people from both clubs involved afterwards, but in the meantime remove the danger from the pitch. You don't need a society ref to do that.
This message edited on Thu, 14 February 08 by the whistleblower
|
-------------------------
Whistleblower |
|
|
ballsie
|
Thu, 14 February 08 15:04 GMT
|
No what I am saying is the opposite its not ok and I am fully aware to the laws regarding boots on bodies and certainly should not be encouraged but when the players in question are just 10 years old.
The approach the referee/coach takes has to be more tolerant if it happens. and what exactly are the chances of getting society referees to ref mini rugby on a regular basis. the referee is going to be a coach on most occasions. Aa stated early on in the thread this is a coaching problem..
You can not referee a mini game inthe same manner you would referee a junior or senior game. that is the point I am trying to make.
This message edited on Thu, 14 February 08 by ballsie
|
-------------------------
Ballsie |
|
|
[
NEXT
|
LAST
]
|
|
|
