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zackly
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Mon, 25 February 08 15:02 GMT
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The Showbiz refs seem to have been suckered into accepting Body Heaps as Rucks - almost mesmerised it seems by RoboRugby of the Pickn'Drive sort.
The Tackle of two Ball Carriers result in at least 3 players being grounded with the ball somewhere between them. Sometimes there really is a Ruck (= opponents on their feet in contact near the ball) as they try to gain possession. What happens after that is its own mess.
However, quite often the next thing after the Tackle phase is that attackers flop or dive onto the existing heap of grounded bodies beyond the ball as it becomes available (by mmagnetism ?) on their side of the Heap. Should be a PK - but continuity for Showbiz reasons seems to over-ride the LoG. Shame really - for those who imitate down-in-the-weeds and get penalised.
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the whistleblower
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Mon, 25 February 08 11:41 GMT
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Per OB: <<The IRB has decreed that a ruck is not over merely because either the opponents have left it, or no players are still on their feet. Once a ruck is formed it remains a ruck until the ball leaves or the referee blows his whistle>>
Spot on, OB. So the pile-up, assuming that it ever was a ruck, remains a ruck - in which case Laws 16.2(d) and 16.4(d) apply.
16.2(d) All players forming, joining or taking part in a ruck must be on their feet.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
16.4(d) Players on the ground in or near the ruck must try to move away
from the ball. These players must not interfere with the ball in the ruck or as it comes out of the ruck.
Penalty: Penalty Kick
However, I suspect any elite ref trying to enforce these laws would be marked down for being seriously out of step with the current practice of their peers. This puts untold pressure on their counterparts in the weeds.
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Whistleblower |
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NBHmark3
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Mon, 25 February 08 10:55 GMT
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OB,
Once a ruck is formed,............. and how many rucks were there on super Saturday in relation to the number of pile ups that were allowed to be treated as rucks?
No problem with once a ruck always a ruck but it needs to be a ruck first. At international level and GP/S14 it rarely if ever is.
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ob
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Sun, 24 February 08 20:42 GMT
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The IRB has decreed that a ruck is not over merely because either the opponents have left it, or no players are still on their feet. Once a ruck is formed it remains a ruck until the ball leaves or the referee blows his whistle.
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HighsideUK
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Sun, 24 February 08 19:17 GMT
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The reason those damned ELVs are being given so much consideration is because of this type of thing where the existing laws/refereeing is such a hopeless mess.
The Laws says there for it to be a ruck the players must be on their feet. Well, patently they are not. The trouble is that referees will let the attacking side get away with blue murder as to bridging/sealing off the ball which amounts to little more than diving on their own player. I believe that they do this in the name of fostering continuity and encouraging quick ball (bah humbug!). A few years ago the referees were much hotter on going off your feet at the tackle and it got very stop-start with too many penalties agaionst the attacking team (actually it was usually Lewis Moody :-) ) and rather than insist the players adjust, the referees/IRB seem to have given in!
The defenders try to get low too and everybody ends up lying in a heap. Now, the ref has allowed this to happen by calling it a ruck. You are allowed to step over a pile of players on the floor that is true - but why would you bother? If its just a pile of bodes then you could run around it and pick up the ball. But we all sort of "feel" that this pile is more important than just a pile of bodies - so it must be a ruck. So if its a ruck you have to bind in to it or you are offside. Steping over you are not bound.
What a mess eh?
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NBHmark3
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Sun, 24 February 08 15:33 GMT
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Its a moot point as the practice referred to is most frequently seen in showbiz rugby but just how tall do you have to be to be able to step over a ruck?
Ooops silly me I was thinking of a real ruck, players bound in contact with the opposition on their feet over the ball not a number of players lying on top of each other, ie off their collective feet in what is technically a pile up with on most occasions not one player on his feet over the ball.
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ob
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Sun, 24 February 08 12:05 GMT
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It is also potentially dangerous. If a player happens to raise his head at the wrong moment .... the Welsh will claim it was deliberate kick.
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stewie
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Sun, 24 February 08 09:03 GMT
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How about offside at a ruck since they are not bound and in front of the rear foot?
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pg
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Sat, 23 February 08 22:40 GMT
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Players keep doing this at international level and are warned/penalised for it. It happened a couple of times in Fra vs Eng tonight.
Do we know under which law this practice is prohibited?
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