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mor
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Wed, 30 April 08 18:23 GMT
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OK we all agree it should not be done. Debating here will not sort the matter out as TV rugby is here to stay. Yes the laws say it should not be done but as pointed out the kids / coaches / refs ( society or otherwise) follow what they see.
I would just like to see some clarity in the Continuum on this - there should not have to be but experience suggests otherwise. Just because the laws say it can't be done no harm in reinforcing it.The kids can develop the darker arts as they get older and move up just let play to the basics now at this level.
Anyway I now have the joy of moving to u13's and the challenges that brings not least can I run around a whole pitch and last the game! In passing reference to another thread re summer me thinks some training is needed.
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pauldg
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Wed, 30 April 08 16:57 GMT
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HighsideUK,
It seems you and I violently agree with each other!
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PaulDG |
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HighsideUK
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Wed, 30 April 08 15:30 GMT
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pauldg:
Everything you say is correct.
Unless Showbiz rugby sorts itself out we don't stand a chance.
Well, we'll all muddle through I'm sure... but it should be better than this!
The Laws Project Group was supposed to address this very problem and yet somehow after a year (or whatever) thinking about it they've completely missed the point and invented a new game as described by the ELVs.
Us: We need clarity around the breakdown!
Them: Hey guys - just look at this fast new spectacular game which is great because the ball never stops!
Us: But the breakdown....
Them: no problem its only a Free Kick now so we can just ignore the illegal moves and get on with throwing the ball around.
Us: But how does this help to stop players falling on the ball and...
Them: Who cares... rucks.. mauls.. BORING!!! Take a quick tap and get on with the real game... you know - running and stuff.
Us: But repeat offences....
Oh we'll just let the referee decide who is being really naughty rather than just a bit naughty and let them penalise them if he wants to.
Oh I dispair.
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pauldg
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Wed, 30 April 08 15:02 GMT
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>You simply cannot hold the line if me and my kids watch rugby on telly and are told that something is LEGAL, then are told the next day it is ILLEGAL, when we play to the same written laws.
This is the view a senior member of my society has - essentially, it's seen on the TV, everyone coaches it, what good are you doing by spoiling a 10 year olds
Sunday morning by penalising him for doing it?
(He wasn't present at the meeting where I asked for guidance and everyone who was believes it should be penalised.)
>Just as an aside, who decided that 'pro' rugby players could go off their feet, and seal, and bridge, and all the other things when it is in direct contravention of the written laws???
Like feeding at the scrum, etc.?
Who knows...?!? (And frankly the "when you're good enough to be one the telly you can do it that way too" - which is the answer we've been given - isn't, IMHO, good enough!)
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PaulDG |
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Wed, 30 April 08 14:02 GMT
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"Why not just specifically mention it as unaccetable practice in the Continuum similar to the way squeezeball is ?"
Because many refs (though not the alleged society ref you mention obviously!) would not agree that it is permissable in the LoTG anyway, and hence is not permissable in the ctnm.
didds
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ealing bill
- wjgrist@tiscali.co.uk
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Wed, 30 April 08 11:50 GMT
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Quite right.
The problem is not, as you so often read on this forum, wicked coaches coaching illegal practices.
The problem is the game is now playing to two sets of laws. The 'pro' laws where every ruck involves illegality - mostly just flopping on the ruck to make the ball impossible to win by the tackling team - and the real laws.
How can we expect people who watch a couple of games of 'pro' rugby in a weekend and see the laws applied in one way, stick to the 'written' laws?
Over a period of time it is inevitable, it seems to me, that all parts of the game will drift to the unwritten laws.
You simply cannot hold the line if me and my kids watch rugby on telly and are told that something is LEGAL, then are told the next day it is ILLEGAL, when we play to the same written laws.
Just as an aside, who decided that 'pro' rugby players could go off their feet, and seal, and bridge, and all the other things when it is in direct contravention of the written laws???
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HighsideUK
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Wed, 30 April 08 08:14 GMT
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mor
"Why not just specifically mention it as unaccetable practice in the Continuum?"
I've got a better question....
Why should we need to?
It is illegal in the senior laws.
Why are senior referees allowing it?
Ho hum.... wrong formum. But its definitely not the continuum's fault!
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HighsideUK
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Wed, 30 April 08 08:10 GMT
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"Not in most Continuum matches"
You are right - I forgot I was on the Continuum forum.
This places even more responsibility on the "real" referees to actually stick to the written laws so that that Dad-Coach-Ref stands half a chance of refereeing the same game without a load of controversy/argument.
I wish the ELV project hadn't been hijacked by the basketball enthusiasts.
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mor
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Wed, 30 April 08 07:51 GMT
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This is an issue which I have had all season at u12's. There are several teams / coaches who have not been impressed when I have penalised their players for the offence after a couple of warnings. One in particular devoted his 1/2 time team talk telling me why I was wrong even showing the picture from the law book to demonstrate his point - why I don't know as it clearly shows off feet is a penalty. Came across the same team / coach a few weeks ago in a festival. Surprisingly he turned out to be a society ref and in the games I saw him ref he was allowing it. Needless to say he wasn't impressed when I ref'ed one of the games involving his team and penalised both teams for the offence. The attitude of the coaches at 1/2 time was interesting. One coach told his team to stop doing it as they know its wrong and the other told them to stop as the ref is wrong and out to get them !Work out which. The problem imho is refs / coaches who are involved in higher leagues / standard where it is 'standard' practice and thus filters down as acceptable. I have also seen it coached at school level. No wonder the kids are confused. Why not just specifically mention it as unaccetable practice in the Continuum similar to the way squeezeball is ? There can be lesser scope for argument then - although I did see a ref the other week at u12 telling both sides to be 5m back from a scrum ( early ELV perhaps ?) so may not solve the issue if people don't read the Continuum.
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pauldg
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Tue, 29 April 08 13:37 GMT
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>Yes and the refreees have the upper hand in more ways than one.
Not in mini rugby generally.
>Every game there is one ref who is in a position to infuence at least two coaches.
Not in most Continuum matches - the "referee" is usually one of those two coaches. (Who themselves are usually dads who have done the Level 1 course and are copying what they see on the telly.)
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PaulDG |
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HighsideUK
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Tue, 29 April 08 12:40 GMT
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Yes and the refreees have the upper hand in more ways than one.
Every game there is one ref who is in a position to infuence at least two coaches.
Coaches will not coach anything they think they will not get away with.
If the referees all of a sudden started reffing everything to the letter of the law then it would be horrible, but to gently and progressively reign us all back in over a season or two would be entirely desirable.
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Tue, 29 April 08 10:40 GMT
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to follow up PaulDG's excellent point, if as rtefs you are to endorse and allow anything that is actively coached, then presumably we should allow punching if everybody actively coaches it?
Clearly that is a ridiculous scenario and so - as Paul says - if it ain;t in the laws, then don't allow it!
I sympathise with these coaches IF what they say ois true. IF it is ytrue then sombody a long way up the ladder needs to start talking to CBs !!!
didds
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pauldg
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Mon, 28 April 08 16:30 GMT
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>At a Mini Festival yesterday where a team from Yorkshire were miffed that they kept being penalised for sealing the ball. They alleged they have been told by their CB/Refs Society that this form of play is allowed, and isn't to be pinged. They therefore coach their players to do it. Do we just give ina nd let it happen, or do we start a campaign to rid this ridiculous form of play from the game from the bottom up?
Some are of the opinion that as this form of play is actively coached, then as referees we should adjust and allow it.
I recently asked for guidance about this from my society and was told "off your feet, out of the game" - so penalise either for obstruction while off feet or for head below hips at the tackle, whichever applies.
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PaulDG |
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j adams
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Mon, 28 April 08 15:21 GMT
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At a Mini Festival yesterday where a team from Yorkshire were miffed that they kept being penalised for sealing the ball. They alleged they have been told by their CB/Refs Society that this form of play is allowed, and isn't to be pinged. They therefore coach their players to do it. Do we just give ina nd let it happen, or do we start a campaign to rid this ridiculous form of play from the game from the bottom up?
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