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pauldg
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Tue, 12 August 08 10:52 GMT
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When Andy started this thread with his welcome update, he said the new Continuum would be published "later this month".
That was in July.
Any update on the publication date?
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PaulDG |
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pauldg
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Fri, 04 July 08 13:42 GMT
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>So you are both right but are talking about different age grades.
When you said 'amazingly the words are different' I though you meant it was amazing that there are two versions of this rule. I would agree!
IMHO this is practically certainly yet another of those editing errors the CRG is rightly famous for.
Earlier versions of the Continuum brought in the 2m rule to prevent the receiver getting a huge run-up.
Last season the 07-08 Continuum, produced in the new (almost useless) "dynamic on-line format" included the change to "everyone stand still" (without announcement).
After discussion here and other places, it was concluded this change was brought in because of the widespread abuse of the 2m rule.
So "stand still" replaced "2m".
Except, I believe, where the editing error left it in...
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PaulDG |
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HighsideUK
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Fri, 04 July 08 13:20 GMT
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No. I am saying you quoted it correctly. I'm saying the other chap did too.
U9s&10s continuum rules say:
3. (b) At the free pass, the ball is held in two hands, off the ground and is passed through the air to a team member. The referee is to ensure that the opposition are 7 metres back before indicating that play is to commence. The receiver of the free pass must start from a line which is no more than 2 metres behind the passer. No player may run until the free pass is made. The passer must not run with the ball or dummy pass. Normal play resumes as the ball leaves the hand of the passer.
U7s&8s continuum rules say:
4. (b) At a free pass, the opposition must be 7 metres back from the mark. They cannot start moving forward until the ball leaves the hands of the passer. At a free pass, the player must start with the ball in both hands and, when instructed by the referee who will call “PLAY”, pass the ball backwards through the air to a member of their team. For safety reasons, no player may run until the pass is made. The player taking the free pass must pass the ball when the referee calls “PLAY”.
So you are both right but are talking about different age grades.
When you said 'amazingly the words are different' I though you meant it was amazing that there are two versions of this rule. I would agree!
Or have I got the wrong end of the stick here?
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DavidGH
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Fri, 04 July 08 13:09 GMT
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Sorry Highside are you saying that I have misquoted the Continuum?
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HighsideUK
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Fri, 04 July 08 13:05 GMT
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whistleblower:
"If he's 2m back and 10m out, then the ball just takes longer to reach him, causing him to slow down"
Well, I know this is all very contrived, but if he was 2m back and 10m out and the passer just lobbed the ball straight up in the air, the 1st reciever could concievably get a really good run on to it before catching it!
It would be insanely dangerous by u9/10 continuum standards of course (defenders and attackers all charging at eachother looking at the sky!) and I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, I'm just saying that technically its legal.
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HighsideUK
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Fri, 04 July 08 12:57 GMT
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"Which quote is incorrect?"
Both. One for U7s/8s, the other for U9s/10s.
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DavidGH
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Fri, 04 July 08 12:09 GMT
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WB
Which quote is incorrect?
Both are lifted directly from the continuum on the RFU website?
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the whistleblower
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Fri, 04 July 08 11:25 GMT
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"So they can start from further back, build up pace and receive the ball flat (oh the joy of theory)."
"Moving the ball sideways as well as behind can give more than 2m of course. "
I think both these are incorrect. It would be very hard for a U.7/8 player to run more than 2m from a standing start in the time it takes a ball, passed flat by another young player , to fall to ground. Remember that the strike runner cannot set off until the ball leaves the passer's hands.
The second quote is incorrect for the U9/10 age group mentioned. The law requires that the strike runner is no more than 2m behind the passer, irrespective of how far away he is laterally. If he's 2m back and 10m out, then the ball just takes longer to reach him, causing him to slow down.
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Whistleblower |
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swb
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Thu, 03 July 08 17:14 GMT
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Presumably those in possession can move at the same time as the opposition although it is not specific (no wonder there are so many disputes about LOTG).
So they can start from further back, build up pace and receive the ball flat (oh the joy of theory).
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DavidGH
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Thu, 03 July 08 16:58 GMT
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Amazingly the wording is different, but the meaning appears extremely similar
however there is no 2m limit, though why you would want to pass back more than 2m eludes me!!
(b) At a free pass, the opposition must be 7 metres back from the mark. They cannot start moving forward until the ball leaves the hands of the passer. At a free pass, the player must start with the ball in both hands and, when instructed by the referee who will call “PLAY”, pass the ball backwards through the air to a member of their team. For safety reasons, no player may run until the pass is made. The player taking the free pass must pass the ball when the referee calls “PLAY”.
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swb
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Thu, 03 July 08 16:43 GMT
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Thanks, so they can be starting off at least and little legs seem to get up a good head of steam in no space at all. Moving the ball sideways as well as behind can give more than 2m of course. Incidentally 7/8’s don’t seem to have the 2m rule (or am I just having a manlook).
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DavidGH
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Thu, 03 July 08 16:31 GMT
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swb
u9/10 rule 3b
"
At the free pass, the ball is held in two hands, off the ground and is passed through the air to a team member. The referee is to ensure that the opposition are 7 metres back before indicating that play is to commence. The receiver of the free pass must start from a line which is no more than 2 metres behind the passer. No player may run until the free pass is made. The passer must not run with the ball or dummy pass. Normal play resumes as the ball leaves the hand of the passer.
"
However note that the ball must be passed through the air, and 2m is almost nothing, so in reality the receiver is almost invariably almost stationary and the ball can not be passed from hand to hand
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swb
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Thu, 03 July 08 16:24 GMT
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Could somebody help me with some clarification please.
There have been a number of comments on this thread about running onto a free pass being banned. Our club tend not to do it (the ball usually gets dropped, gods know how they ever win games) but a lot of the opposition do.
As I understand it, you can start running onto the ball the moment it leaves the passer’s hands. Am I wrong in thinking this?
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DavidGH
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Thu, 03 July 08 15:52 GMT
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You could go on, but it would be missing the point.
The point is that bad refs miss dangerous banned moves and this is bad - YOU AGREE - perfect - point over
No we don't coach the silly time wasting double pass wall, excepting to teach our guys to use the wasted time to get up and on them!
We like - K.I.S.S. for u10s - play good simple rugby well - it works
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HighsideUK
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Thu, 03 July 08 15:45 GMT
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DavidGH
You went to the trouble of defining "playing the ref"it so the least I should do is respond.
"Playing to the ref: Noticing that the ref allows moves, plays, fouls or whatever which you KNOW are outside the rules and purposefully exploiting his lack of knowledge or "
You then go in to give a list of examples that are mostly dangerous as well.
Anything dangerous is wrong. Always. That as little to do with playing the ref.
Even if the referee is allowing hand-offs or high tackles I would agree it is wrong to do them at junior level. I have no problem with devoting a fair amount of time to drumming in to the boys that they must not do dangerous things.
So if by "playing the ref " you simply mean "trying to get away with doing dangerous things" then I agree with you. In that case I am entirely agianst it and would never do it.
The massive run-up to receive a free pass is not really dangerous though. You never did tell me if you drilled your boys so that the second receiver takes the massive run-up instead? Isn't that dangerous too them? I hope you don't let them take a run up from a scrum either.
And when you end your list with "everything else which is SPECIFICALLY excluded by the Continuum" I see that you think that the only reason the Continuum bans things is because otherwise it would be unsafe.
But this is way off the mark!
Examlpes:
Kicking is banned because becuase the game is simpler without it not safer.
Uncontested lineouts were not devised because U9s can't squabble over a ball without hurting eachother. They were devised because if the defenders were allowed to disrupt, the ball would never ever leave the lineout cleanly!
The 5m at scrum rule (perhaps it should be 10m now!) just gives them time to think. It would actualy be safer to make them stand closer!
I could go on.
This message edited on Thu, 03 July 08 by HighsideUK
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HighsideUK
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Thu, 03 July 08 15:08 GMT
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DavidGH:
"The sharp practices (all but one on Pauls list) are OUTLAWED BECAUSE THEY ARE DANGEROUS for small kids with inadequate experience "
Things are outlawed because they are dangerous full stop. Size and experienece are not the issue.
Here is the list:
them to creep forward of the 5m back line at a scrum, (not dangerous)
to follow the opposing SH round the scrum, (not dangerous)
to feed at the scrum, (not dangerous)
to strike early, (maybe dangerous)
to bind onto the leg of the opposing prop and pull him off line, (dangerous)
to leap on the opposing forward in an uncontested U9s lineout, (not dangerous)
to run onto a free pass restart in order to crash through the line, (not dangerous)
etc.
I realise the last two are contentous but even if I let you have those then its still "all but 3" or "about half" which does not have quite the same ring to it as "all but one".
I think I'll just have to leave you to you own way of thinking as I don't seem to be making my points clearly.
Have fun with your rugby. We're all on the same side really - we are just arguing about details.
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swb
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Thu, 03 July 08 14:30 GMT
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David, you seem to have moved from coaches and players cheating to unsafe refereeing.
If you believe the refereeing is of a standard that is dangerous, you remove your team from the field of play. You can then discuss the issues with the relevant authorities and see if you can come to a safe accommodation whereby the game can continue.
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DavidGH
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Thu, 03 July 08 14:12 GMT
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Highside
You are missing the point
The sharp practices (all but one on Pauls list) are OUTLAWED BECAUSE THEY ARE DANGEROUS for small kids with inadequate experience
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HighsideUK
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Thu, 03 July 08 14:08 GMT
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pauldg
"IMHO the two extremes here are the child who is physically well developed and has good motor skills for his/her age and the one who is not."
You have got this all wrong.
The continuum was not designed to allow the latter to compete successfully with the former. Not at all.
The reduced numbers and reduced complexty of the game are good for lots of reasons but the small slow kids still stand no more chance than they do in he adult game. Its up to us as coaches to keep them involved and learning until they mature and find their level - but that's not what the continuum is for.
Tell me some rule changes that were designed to allow the small/slow kids to compete. Not even uncontested scrums at U9 fits this bill. Its not that the RFU thinks the small weak kids are too likely to get hurt in the scrum at U9 - its that the RFU thinks that ALL the kids are too likely to get hurt.
As for the list of "sharp practices" you list. You say yourself that neither the big/fast or small/slow players are helped by them. And neither is disadvantaged either. So its all quite fair really.
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DavidGH
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Thu, 03 July 08 14:05 GMT
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Playing to the ref: Noticing that the ref allows moves, plays, fouls or whatever which you KNOW are outside the rules and purposefully exploiting his lack of knowledge or will.
IT IS NOT: We are not talking of minor mistakes in judgement and being unfair whether the ball stays in a maul for 5 seconds or 15 seconds.
EXAMPLES at u10 level:
Allowing major maul (or ruck) pile ups and continuing play
Allowing bridging and squeezeball
Allowing players to dive into mauls
Allowing massive 'run ups' to recieve a free pass
ignoring hand-offs (even to the face)
and everything else which is SPECIFICALLY excluded by the Continuum!!
This trait is poor and unsporting in Mini rugby players and appalling, and dangerous in mini coaches - BUT appalling uninformed refereeing encourages it, particularly when the refs concerned are wearing society shirts and claim they know the Continuum when they quite clearly and blatantly don't.
Unfortunately, as we strive to gain better referees for festivals, this is a new problem, which has cropped up AND NEEDS STOPPING
We are not talking about inexperienced coaches learning to ref here, we are talking experienced refs, who don't know the continuum.
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swb
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Thu, 03 July 08 14:03 GMT
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Forgive me for putting words in people’s mouths but as I understand it, what Highside is saying is “Play to the ref’s interpretation of the rules.” Surely this is all a team can do.
At continuum level I’m sure we all see substantial differences in the referees in terms of experience/competence and interpretation of the rules. Many coaches are reluctant to ref and as long as they are safe and fair we will take what we can get in terms of any knowledge of the laws (calm down, I exaggerate slightly for dramatic effect).
My lad’s U11 team suffers pretty much equally at the start of quite a few games from either the other side getting away with what we would call dubious and on the other hand being pinged ourselves. Being pretty much in the middle does this mean we have it about right – I don’t know.
One way or another the team has to adapt to the ref and either go a step forward to compete or a step back to comply.
On a windy day a lineout ball is unlikely to be straight, does the ref let it go, reset it or turn it over. I’ve seen all of them. One team’s throws are more wayward than the others. Are the players trying to play the ref?
As long as the ref is safe and fair, we thank him for taking the field and play the opposition.
Does anybody have any real evidence of mini teams actively being coached to cheat?
For info I don’t ref or coach as the game is far too complicated.
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HighsideUK
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Thu, 03 July 08 13:44 GMT
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DavidGH
I never meant to insult anyone or imply anyone was poorly coached.
Sorry if I caused offence.
I agree with you, and I too think things would be better if the game was refereed more uniformly - from U7 up to Internationals actualy.
I was merely trying to argue that an hour spent on teaching continuum rules to the boys is an hour not spent on anything else and I ws trying to explain why I thought that was a bad idea if it was over-done.
I'm not overjoyed at obliquely being labelled a bad sportsman myself! But mostly I am just interested in the reasoning behind the accusation.
"Pushing the rules to the referee". What do you mean by this? Is it what I said earlier, i.e. finding out what the ref thinks the rules are and following them?
We can both agree that simply trying to get away with things that the ref can't see/ won't notice is plain ordinary cheating and I would not seek to defend that in any way. That's not what I think of as 'playing the ref'.
So what is playing the ref? You have a go at defining it and explaining to me why it is unsportsmanlike.
I'd hope that I don't do anything that you can reasonably argue is unsporting. And if you do, I promise I'll stop!
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DavidGH
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Thu, 03 July 08 13:41 GMT
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Thanks Paul
As usual I think we are in agreement. I wondered for a moment!!
I don't think I am talking about the extremes, except in the case of extremely bad reffing with NO respect for the Continuum!!
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pauldg
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Thu, 03 July 08 13:25 GMT
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>There are two extremes here and any real kid will fall between the two.
I agree. But I don't agree with you at all about what these extremes are..
IMHO the two extremes here are the child who is physically well developed and has good motor skills for his/her age and the one who is not.
The *Continuum* is about supporting both of these development rates - the early developer from getting "too big for his boots" because of the ease with which he overcomes his less well developed contemporaries and the late developer who gives up the game because he's fed up with always being on the losing side of a 30-0 match week in, week out and hardly gets to touch a ball anyway.
*Neither* of *those* extremes is helped by coaching them to creep forward of the 5m back line at a scrum, to follow the opposing SH round the scrum, to feed at the scrum, to strike early, to bind onto the leg of the opposing prop and pull him off line, to leap on the opposing forward in an uncontested U9s lineout, to run onto a free pass restart in order to crash through the line, etc.
It doesn't help the kids (and certainly doesn't help the referees society or otherwise).
Teach them to play to the rules *as* *written*. The limits are there to allow them to build up skills as their bodies develop and to have some fun.
Plenty of time to teach them to push the limits and "play to the referee" when they've passed puberty and are playing junior rugby.
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PaulDG |
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DavidGH
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Thu, 03 July 08 12:58 GMT
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Simon
Thanks for a constructive and carefully thought out reply. Your feelings echo mine.
Unfortunately there are coaches who train kids actively to push the rules to the referee, personally I think this is bad sportsmanship and should be discouraged.
Highside,
you appear to presume our kids, playing in these county and national finals are poorly coached and because we like them to play to the rules, they somehow suffer, since they are playing in these regional and county finals you may, I would venture, assume they are reasonably able and well coached! They have recently played succesfully in a French regional Festival near Bourdeaux, having been breifed and trained in French rules. Prefectly adaptable as well.
Should we coach them to 'play to' the referee at u10 level ..... personally, I think not, simply play to the rules!!
I am averse to cheating and like good refereeing, and this is NOTHING LIKE being bothered about whether there is the odd misjudgement of a forward pass or held up. My question relates to very significant ignorance of the CONTINUUM RULES and worries for the safety of VERY YOUNG children in my care. An issue I think the RFU and CRG should address more actively.
Maybe we could all go back to the assumption that since we can be bothered to post here, we may have a just a modicum of knowledge and/or skill!!
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