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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Wed, 06 August 08 12:12 GMT
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further to this ... online registrations may well flag up what OB says, but whatever system is in place it doesn't cover "accidents" with the name.
last season I found that having registered a player, a couple of weeks later he still didn't appear in our lists. Futher investigations showed he was there but accidentally his christian name and surname had got swapped around. If this player appeared on a starting line up form thingy, he could well have been flagged as not regsistered of course.
Similarly, a player registered with one club as Bertrand Smith could be registered subsequently as Bert Smith elsewhere - and this would not AIUI get flagged up, so the same player could well be regsistered for two clubs (and this presumably could be used to "fudge" the registration process between two clubs.)
Come to that - what would be stopping an unscrupulous club from registering a player under a totally fictitious name - nobody asks for proof of name and address do they? Or a banned player from registering with another club under a totally false name? (Especially outside of the CB where his face is less likely to be known)
Finally - online registration is likely IMO _AND_ IME to lead to such spelling mishaps etc as rather than any sort of official form being filled in its just as likely that the players details get scribbled on a beer mat in the bar for the regn. sec. to dedeal with online later...
This isn;t a knock at lonine regn at all - paper regn is as likely to come up with these possibilities of course. Tho' online regn may make the accidentally anomalies more likely maybe.
didds
This message edited on Wed, 06 August 08 by didds
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ob
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Tue, 05 August 08 01:21 GMT
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On-line registration should solve this problem. The system will tell you if a player is registered with another club.
Question: what happens to registrations if a club folds? Surely they must be no longer valid as there is no club to agree to the transfer?
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MarBx2$6#t
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Tue, 05 August 08 00:17 GMT
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We experienced an incident a few (not many) years ago when we asked a player if he was registered with any other club. He answered "no" so we went through the normal procedures to register him.
Three weeks later - after he played TWICE for the first XV, we were informed that he was, in fact, registered with a club he had played at about 10 years earlier. He had played professional rugby league in-between and made the assumption that he was de-registered from the original (union) club.
We were aiming for promotion that season and are a (very) grass roots club (level 13!) so the potential 4 points lost would have been significant.
Fortunately, the powers that be saw sense after a well-crafted letter from our club secretary, and the points were re-instated.
I am not telling this story to promote either view, but there are pitfalls involved with the registration process.
BTW - we have now reviewed our questions to new players to ask "Are you registered or have you EVER been registered (or played) for another rugby union club?".
So far we have been OK with this new process.
Regards,
Martyn.
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Thu, 15 May 08 10:08 GMT
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following on from OB....
It is my understanding that when a re-registration is applied for the "old" club get a copy of the registration with some time period in which they can "reject" the move.
In reality, with amateurs at least, there is normally no reason to ever block a move because there is no contactural ability to do so. Possibly the scenario that OB outlined is the sort of "exception" that the system flags up.
didds
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ob
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Wed, 14 May 08 20:37 GMT
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It doesn't prove anything either way, but some people have REAL trouble with registration.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/23_12221.php
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ob
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Wed, 14 May 08 17:22 GMT
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I got involved in a case a while back where a player left club A owing a lot of money and then tried to join club B some distance away. The registration system stopped him until the money was paid.
That is of course a separate issue, but a perfecly valid one.
The current system is not in fact a free-for-all, however much some clubs may try to get round the issue.
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dn_millan
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Wed, 14 May 08 17:08 GMT
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OB they can wander now, all the club with money has to do is register them. Don't see how registration stops that other than perhaps limiting the number of clubs a player can register for in a season. Still not convinced that registration brings any value to my club. In our league clubs were registring players in the last week before the deadline from 3 levels above us in the quest for promotion. No moaning we just get on and play them. With or without registration players move from club to club. Why put obstacles in their way?
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McTorty |
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dn_millan
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Wed, 14 May 08 17:08 GMT
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OB they can wander now, all the club with money has to do is register them. Don't see how registration stops that other than perhaps limiting the number of clubs a player can register for in a season. Still not convinced that registration brings any value to my club. In our league clubs were registring players in the last week before the deadline from 3 levels above us in the quest for promotion. No moaning we just get on and play them. With or without registration players move from club to club. Why put obstacles in their way?
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McTorty |
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ob
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Mon, 12 May 08 00:54 GMT
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We are at cross-purposes on the EQP issue. Yes, clubs will be compensated for having players in the 3 EPS squads.
However there is also this (from the press release):
"Clubs will only receive payment under the Agreement by having players in one or more of the 3 EPS squads and/or through compensation payments under the EQP scheme and/or by running an RFU licensed Academy."
The EQP scheme is therefore different. I don't have details but I understand is is meant to encourage clubs to include EQPs in their match day squads.
If players can wander from club to club as the whim (or money) takes them, what do leagues mean?
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dn_millan
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Sun, 11 May 08 23:12 GMT
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OB, We do register the maximum less one or two to allow emergency registrations. It is nevertheless a great deal of uncessary work to ensure we put out a side that meets with registration regulations every week.
What's so bad with a free for all?
How does non registration change things for the worse?
What are the benefits of registration that justifies all the work associated with registration?
On the subject of the agreement over EQP with the premiership sides it looks like the premiership side have done a side deal to ditrubute the money in a diffent way envisaged by the RFU. This makes it less attractive to have many Engalnd Squad players so some, like the Falcons, are allowing some to move on no doubt to be replaced by antipodeans!
Although not my favourite newspaper try this link for an explanation. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=564945&in_page_id=1951&ito=newsnow
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McTorty |
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ob
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Sat, 10 May 08 22:51 GMT
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dn_millan - obviously myexperience is different from yours. There are occasional problems, but it is hardly a major disaster. I think a fre-for-all would be far worse. Why not register the maximum number possible?
I don't follow your argument on EQPs. My understanding is that clubs will benefit financially from having EQPs in their match day squad. Why does this cause Tait and co to leave Newcastle?
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dn_millan
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Sat, 10 May 08 21:53 GMT
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I'm not sure where I have exaggerated.
Just because the great majority of clubs stay within the regulations does not mean that the regulations are good. They do absorb an inordiante amount of admin time in an amateur club. Those that make an innocent mistake are penalised harshly. There are examles from the London and South Eaat leagues that I know about. They do prevent loyal but non registered club players playing league rugby in an emergency.
If registration is needed at youth rugby to ensure players play in the correct age group it does not follow that registration is needed at the senior level.
If the purpose of the registration requirment is to prevent the playing of underage players in a senior game why is there no need to register for non league rugby below 1st team level. We are trusted to play only those old enough to play; believe me we do. If we can be trusted for non league rugby why not for league rugby?
Seperately, the RFU may have intended that clubs with many EQP receive up to £2 million but that was before Premier Rugby Ltd agreed their"equalisation policy". Having many EQP will not result in a payment in millions but has resulted in clubs like Newcastle Falcons allowing Tait and Flood to leave to join other premiership clubs. Somehow the RFU has allowed the situation to develop where the optimum situation in terms of funding will result in many clubs moving on their EQP. If this is what the RFU intended then it is peculiar, if it wasn't intended then it is incompetence.
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McTorty |
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ob
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Sat, 10 May 08 00:18 GMT
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dn_millan - you exaggerate. A quick perusal of the latest yearbook shows that the great majority of clubs manage to keep to the regulations.
There is a relaxation for clubs in the bottom leagues, if the CB wishes to exercise it.
It is also worth pointing out that this follows on from Junior rugby, where registration is necessary to prevent players playing in the wrong age groups.
The agreement the RFU has reached with the clubs provides for money to be paid for each EQP in a match day squad, which could amount to £2 million per year. This is in addition to compensation for players in the Elite squad.
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dn_millan
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Fri, 09 May 08 23:12 GMT
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These regulations impose an unecessary burden on amateur clubs run by volunteers. They also prevent genuine club members turning out for their first teams at times of real need because of the requirment to be super organised to ensure registration. They also result in some clubs being penalised excessivley when all they are guilty of is an admin oversight.
Given all clubs above level 5 are now deemed to be professional why not limit registration requirements to these pro clubs. Free amateur clubs from this ridiculous bureacracy. If that means some amateur clubs recruit well from other local clubs or the army so be it. I don't mind. In fact I'll ask them how they do it and try to improve recruitment at my club!
I'm in favour of free movement and the removal of ridculous petty restrictions. Running a rugby club is hard enough without the the RFU making it harder.
Incidentally I also think it against the essential spirit of rugby to define clubs as professional just to prevent overseas players on Holidaymaker visas registering for them. It is a sledghammer to crack a nut. If immigration law prevents overseas players playing pro sport (i.e. playing for reward) then prevent them doing just that, playing for money but if an overseas player is prepared to play as an amateur what's wrong with that. Some overseas players come to work and experienece life in the UK. Rugby is incidental to the visit. Why should they be prevented from playing at the higest level their ability allows as amateurs and enjoy their hobby which is exactly what rugby is for most of us?
Bizarrely these rules which prevent overseas players playing as pros come from the same organisation which has arrived at an agreement with the Premership clubs that effectively discourages the retention of English qualified players and encourages the importing of overseas players who are available all season. Inconsitency!
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McTorty |
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ob
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Fri, 09 May 08 21:15 GMT
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I suggest anyone interested in the details actually reads the regulations.
They are quite complex, presumably in order to ensure that the exception allowed for students to switch between home and college does not lead to a free-for-all.
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Fri, 09 May 08 21:05 GMT
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WB - AIUI there is nothing to stop a player being registered for twenty different clubs in one season - as long as they are not registered for more than one club at any one time (student dispensation, see above).
didds
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Fri, 09 May 08 21:04 GMT
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... but there IS AIUI exemptions available for students that are registered for their University/College team such that they can ALSO be registered for a club (intended for use for vacations).
didds
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ob
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Fri, 09 May 08 16:22 GMT
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9.4 No Player may hold Effective Registration with more than one Club at any one time.
You can find the regulations on here.
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the whistleblower
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Fri, 09 May 08 15:12 GMT
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And are there any restrictions on being registered for more than one team?
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Whistleblower |
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didds
- scrumtime@hotmail.com
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Fri, 09 May 08 10:40 GMT
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whilst I do not disagree with WB's point at all, nevertheless and FWIW
1) there is no need to be a member of a club to be registered for it
2) registrations are effective AIUI 7 days after they are made - so the entire army team could be registered in time with some advance planning
2a) 2 above notwithstanding overnight registrations are permissable for a fee of £25 AIUI. So for less than £500 a club could presumably register overnight the local army team should they so wish. (caveats on alleged £500 fees for second registration of the season for any one individual...)
didds
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the whistleblower
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Fri, 09 May 08 10:09 GMT
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Or, to add to OB's post, if a club in a town with an army barracks, involved in an apparently hopeless relegation struggle, just plucked the army team from whichever regiment happened to be in residence to play as their 1st XV in the deciding match of the season, without requiring that they be club members?
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Whistleblower |
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ob
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Fri, 09 May 08 00:30 GMT
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So you would be happy if a GP player with a free weekend played for a local team in a league match?
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dn_millan
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Thu, 08 May 08 20:14 GMT
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It makes no sense as far as I can see. Unnecessary bureaucracy especially for amatueur clubs run by volunteers. By all means allow the professionals to operate a registration system if they wish just don't force it the rest of us.
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McTorty |
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northl1
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Mon, 05 May 08 13:14 GMT
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I know that comparing the premiership with the grass roots is comparing apples and oranges but can anyone explain this?
Premiership club with full time administration staff, large squads and fast track player registration field an ineligable player and lose 1 point (bearing in mind 4 for a win plus bonus points)
If a grass roots club with no professional staff or players were to play an unregistered player, they would lose 2 points = a win!
Regisration in the lower levels is an administrative nightmare, especially in clubs with quite transient membership. (Students and young profesionals career hopping and going traveling).
Does registration really make things fairer?
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